Charles Harris Traded. | Page 20 | FinHeaven - Miami Dolphins Forums

Charles Harris Traded.

Fin D said:
Look, we're going in circles.

You don't understand basic concepts and language and are itching for a fight because you're likely miserable at home or something, and I'm an idiot for trying to get you too grasp this very simple stuff.

So believe what you want, cause this line here ------>|<------ (is where I stop being pulled into your ridiculousness)
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You know someone^ is desperate when they start getting into personal attacks.

finomenal said:
Pretty annoying when someone insists 2+2=5.
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/thread
 
finomenal said:
@Atila I was referring to you :lol:

Doesn't surprise me that you wouldn't catch that.
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Hah. Sorry, I just figured you're referring to that kid since he's arguing with 3 other people in this thread. I'm not the one blindly defending a GM, simply wishing him good luck ;)
 
Looks like 2/3 of the 2017 1st round picks are not having thier 5th year option picked up or are no longer with the team that drafted them, so Harris won't be alone on the free agent market next year.
 
Christ these “you blindly follow/no you blindly attack” Chris Grier arguments are becoming as tedious as the “you blindly follow/no you blindly attack” Ryan Tannehill arguments.

Isn’t it obvious that nobody really knows who was/is responsible for recommending, suggesting, pushing, persuading, arguing, agreeing or overriding in relation to any pick?
 
This is so silly. Only the people within the organization know who Grier wanted at the time of these picks. What if he was being team player guy with the coaches and picked guys they wanted to fit their scheme?

I mean, I wanted him fired with Gase and everybody else, but the fact that he was kept lets me know he was probably leaning towards smart decisions and didn't have the overall power or arrogance to override everybody else.

I know this might be a pretty new concept, but being a GM isn't all about some binary "I picked this guy by myself and they worked out or didn't" decision making process. Spielman and Ireland were lambasted non-stop here and yet they're being heaped with praise constantly for what they're doing with Minnesota and New Orleans respectively so it's obviously more than that.

And to pick the 2017 draft to bitch over? So arbitrary. In retrospect that first round was full of busts as far as the eye can see so picking Harris was no different than the performance of more than 2/3s of the rest of the GMs. I mean, we picked an OLB and stuck him at 4-3 DE. You don't think that a large portion of that was the defensive coordinator, who has since proven he's bad at his job, yelling in Grier's ear that he could make it work? Nobody after him was very good either outside of TJ Watt and he plays the same OLB position so who's to say we wouldn't have ruined him too by shoving him into a spot he didn't belong? You think TJ Watt is going to stop the run as a 4-3 DE? I've got news for you... he wouldn't either considering they weigh exactly the same.

We had an OLB playing 4-3 DE. I'm not blaming Grier for that one. I'm blaming the same coaching staff that said they could find guards at Publix and started Turner and Dallas Thomas.
 
Atila said:
It's just weird that people have to BLINDLY defend Grier.

This isn't a situation where the GM has a history of great picks - this isn't Ozzie Newsome or something where a report surfaces that maybe it wasn't his pick, but you're not sure - you believe it.

Grier has been a MAJOR FACTOR in all things the draft - head of scouting, personnel, the actual GM - and we have been consistently bad at drafting.

We are all VERY AWARE there were multiple chefs in the kitchen a lot of times, but he was in every kitchen every single time and guess what? Nothing good has come from it. I'm glad we can cite X as a great pick up - a GM should land on SOMETHING... but I remember that draft and everyone on this forum was like WHO IS THAT? Maybe 10-15% of people liked the pick. And the word on the street is the team was ELATED he fell where he did, the team "didn't think he would last that long".

Dude did not produce. At all. Not even as a 4th or 5th or 6th round pick. I think I recall him batting down a couple passes or deflecting a punt/field goal... yippee.

Fact is we need to stop blindly defending the GM who's been a huge part of an organization that has been mediocre or worse for over two decades. We're all Dolphin fans here, but we don't need to blindly suck off a front office that hasn't done anything to deserve it. They still have a lot to prove. And so does Chris Grier - I love the new front office additions and the offseason we had this year. Lets keep going. But as of now, he deserves... well, nothing.
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By this logic, we should also indict the janitor for being responsible for every pick made during his employment.

Also, by this token, if you are blaming him for Harris are you also praising him for Xavien?

BLINDLY dismissing ACTUAL POWER within the organization to support your narrative proves more about an AGENDA than actual facts.

If your title is not Head Coach, General Manager or Owner... you weren't even in the discussion to pick the guy. It is just that simple. And even if your title is GM, it doesn't mean you picked the guy. You think Adam Gase didn't get to influence picks? Every situation is different. Every TEAM is different.

Comparing Chris Grier's 2016 - 2018 GM "powers" to Ozzie Newsome's authority is just lazy writing.

When Chis Grier was given power to hire a Head Coach in Brian Flores, he OFFICIALLY became a legit GM. THAT moment is when his role was similar to Newsome's.

This constant lumping of organizational failures into a collective condemnation of Grier is just agendas looking to oversimplify the process of finding fault in a organization that has been devoid of true football leadership at the top for decades.

Don't blame the soldiers for having to serve under a bad leader. The leader finally stepped aside and give authority to a football mind.

Judge Grier on Flores' tenure because that is Grier's hand picked direction for the Miami Dolphins.
 
phinfan40353 said:
By this logic, we should also indict the janitor for being responsible for every pick made during his employment.

Also, by this token, if you are blaming him for Harris are you also praising him for Xavien?

BLINDLY dismissing ACTUAL POWER within the organization to support your narrative proves more about an AGENDA than actual facts.

If your title is not Head Coach, General Manager or Owner... you weren't even in the discussion to pick the guy. It is just that simple. And even if your title is GM, it doesn't mean you picked the guy. You think Adam Gase didn't get to influence picks? Every situation is different. Every TEAM is different.

Comparing Chris Grier's 2016 - 2018 GM "powers" to Ozzie Newsome's authority is just lazy writing.

When Chis Grier was given power to hire a Head Coach in Brian Flores, he OFFICIALLY became a legit GM. THAT moment is when his role was similar to Newsome's.

This constant lumping of organizational failures into a collective condemnation of Grier is just agendas looking to oversimplify the process of finding fault in a organization that has been devoid of true football leadership at the top for decades.

Don't blame the soldiers for having to serve under a bad leader. The leader finally stepped aside and give authority to a football mind.

Judge Grier on Flores' tenure because that is Grier's hand picked direction for the Miami Dolphins.
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Grier and Dolphins management have repeatedly said that Grier ran the draft since 2016. He was the GM. It's completely factual and not really debatable . Grier was responsible for the picks. Did Gase and/or Tannenbaum have input? Sure they did. I bet there were even some cases where Grier was either over-ruled or picked a different player than he would have if he had final say based on the others input on team needs, etc. But as GM, it's his drafting record that people will hold him to. We can't pretend he was off playing candy crush on his phone while Gase and Tannenbaum made all the choices.

Take any draft pick in that timeframe - how do you think the decision was arrived at? For example Gesicki - there are several likely scenarios:
1) Grier had him at the top of his list and picked him. Simplest and most likely option for the one who ran the draft
2) Grier wanted another player. Gase felt he needed a TE. Grier acquiesces and picks the top TE on his board. Definitely a possibility, although guess what - this Grier is still picking from his list
3) Grier wanted another player, Gase suggests Gesicki, who Grier doesn't even have on his list yet still picks him. Unlikely in my mind
4) Gase / Tannenbaum picked Gesicki, while Grier was playing on his phone. Highly unlikely

Which of these is really the more likely scenario in your mind? Which is the most likely scenario for all the draft choices made?

I am not blaming Grier for FA dealings or saying he sucks and should be fired. But he owns that draft history.
 
DZimmer000 said:
My 2 cents...

I’ve been very critical of Grier for a few years now. But in my mind, it’s not without warrant. You see, the Dolphins haven’t drafted well in years. Many Years. Grier has been part of that problem. You can debate how much of the problem he has been. However, you cannot deny he has been part of the problem.

As most of you are aware, an NFL team’s draft board gets put together by the GM and the scouts. I’m sure Tannenbaum had some say on the final board, but it was Grier and his guys that put Charles Harris on the board. Tannenbaum was not out in the field scouting guys. That is pretty close to a certainty. I also remember specifically hearing Bill Polian say on NFL Radio he had a way lower grade on Harris and didn’t consider him a good prospect at all. So who gets the blame? In my mind it’s Grier. The fact that Harris was ranked that high to begin with is an indictment of Grier and our scouting team. Who picked Harris? I say who cares! Why was he on our draft board with a first round grade?

Do GM’s miss on prospects? Yes they do. But you have to at least hit on a certain percentage. I’m pretty sure Grier hasn’t hit even close to that percentage. How many first round picks from our last 6 drafts are still on the team? How about the rest of our drafts? Again, Grier falls short.

Let’s look at this Draft for another example. While the QB everyone wanted fell to 5, the rest of the draft was filled with reaches and draft picks that could have been taken at a later pick. In some cases, a lot later. Any good GM will tell you, the draft is about value. Tua was great value at 5. The rest of our draft? Not so much.

Is Chris Grier right taking the players he did at the spots they were taken this year? Maybe. Maybe I’m completely wrong. It’s going to be a year or two before we know. But...... History is not on Grier’s side in this case. And I’m pretty sure you can’t argue that based on the facts.

Let me say this about Grier. He did get the coaching decision right in my mind. I was against Flores at first. I was totally wrong. Brian Flores is a rising superstar in the NFL. I’ll also give credit to Grier for the tear down of the Dolphins last year. He got rid of problems and got good return value. Again, what he’s done with that value so far is very much up for debate.
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This is about how I feel. It’s been hard to no who was running the show the way Ross set up the FO for a long time now. But the point about Grier being largely responsible for putting players on the board is a good one. We have had a tendency to reach for players in rounds 1-3 (unless the obvious no 1 pick drops in our laps) and then do well in the back half of the draft. The only constant during this time period was Grier being in charge of scouting. I think this draft class will be very telling. If everyone selected in rounds 1-3 suck then Grier should be fired or stripped of draft duties. If Tua is great and everyone else sucks he doesn’t get a pass either. The next 5 years of this franchise depend so much on this and next years draft class.
 
I personally think if this doesnt work out we should just fire the magic eight ball that has made these picks the last two decades and bring on Hal 5000
 
Being draft high is privilege..doesnt alway mean success.. it good thing for dolphins and harris. Fresh start...
 
<Grier and Dolphins management have repeatedly said that Grier ran the draft since 2016.>

Source on this please?
 
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