dlockz
Hall Of Famer
a man that has been the primary scout and in charge of scouting for like 14 years is not one of those 2 percent types
Charles Harris Traded.
- Thread starter Phinatic8u
- Start date
Do you see the issue with your argument? You say a percentage cannot be put on it because we don't know, but you somehow do know it is more 2%?
dlockz
Hall Of Famer
i see no issue although none of us can know. The man has been in charge of college scouting for over a decade and to think that he has about 2 percent say over the 22nd pick in the draft seems pretty damn ridiculous.
I mean maybe we have had the dumbest owner and dumbest organization in history but if he had 2 percent say as the Gm then he should have resigned based on his many years as head of college scouting.
we are not talking about some guy that has had zero to do with scouting or had a minor role just being a token. None of us have any inside knowledge of the draft for this team so its all just educated guesses.
And he peaked as a rookie. Wasn’t he DROY?
There was a time where I thought we’d have to worry about the Jets defense. Seems like Richardson and Wilkerson were ONLY concerned about their contracts.
I know we have no inside knowledge, that's my point. Your point is literally predicated on you having some kind of inside knowledge. Your point cannot have it both ways, we either know or we don't.
dlockz
Hall Of Famer
Well in reality thats what they should worry about its not like owners dont care about money but point well taken. Richardson has been an solid player for the most part the past two years.
injuries took their toll on Wilkerson
I don't know if you saw my couple points before... but THIS is my whole point.
When you have been a "significant" part of this franchise in various different forms for two decades and the team has been CONSISTENTLY mediocre or worse... you do NOT get the benefit of the doubt.
It's that simple.
We're all Fin fans here... just see no reason to blindly defend the front office when this team has been so poorly managed for two full decades... you simply lost all defense at this point.
Good job this year, I'm actually most excited about them bringing in Allen and McKenzie into the office and believe they will be the reason we'll be able to finally hit on some OL (Chris Griers easiest weakness by a mile and it isn't close). I'm rooting for improvement, I'm rooting for Grier to succeed... I just don't feel the need to give him blind defense, he hasn't earned that right.
And those of you who are arguing against this, that need absolute proof on everything, that "who knows how much say he has" seemingly don't have the common (maybe business?) sense to have a conversation with. Everyone here likes the Dolphins - lets establish that. If you have the basic sense, than you can see Grier hasn't done anything yet to get such a monumental pass some of you are suggesting.
Good year in 2019-2020, let's keep it going.
dlockz
Hall Of Famer
I will just leave it here. Grier has been the chief scout and director of college scouting for well over a decade as well as Gm since 2016. He has been a huge part in all hits and misses in the draft as Gm he was a hug part of selecting Charles Harris. Not sure why anybody is bothered by acknowledging this.
In reality I was joking about getting a 7th for harris. It is not amazing for any GM to get a seventh round pick for a former first round pick. A seventh rounder is pretty insignificant except for some minor switching around of picks and if used is just a first priority on guys that are basically undrafted level.
if we get a 5th or a 6th for Rosen I also will not crow about. Sometimes u have to cut bait and accept losses and thats what we did with Harris.
It is a bad sign for our scouting department or any scouting department to have a miss of this magnitude but it happens with all teams at some point.
Dallas in the same draft took Charlton who has now been cut by two teams.
It will be interesting to see if Atlanta is able to turn Harris into a player but its basically a free tryout and a smart risk. Kind of like ours with Gary Jennings although on a little different scale
WADR, you are wrong, i'm sorry.
You are literally basing your entire point on generic definitions. They literally hold no weight. I am not defending anything here. Literally nothing.
I'm merely pointing out that our power structure was such that you cannot place blame on Grier unless you have inside knowledge to know how much he made X decision. The calls of, "he was GM!!!!!" or "he was director of scouting!!!!!", prove literally nothing.
If Grier's moves from last year on prove to be bad, then he is to blame because the power structure as is, all goes through him and we know that for a fact now. I mean how do you or does anyone else know that Grier wanted Watt over Harris but was over ruled by Tbaum or pushed by Gase? We don't. And that could have easily happened the way things were set up before last year.
So instead of demanding people hold other people responsible to some nebulous and meaningless degree, why is it so damn wrong to a bunch of you for us to not over react with no real info?
I have no idea what kind of GM Grier is and I am not defending him. I like this draft, I like Flo. That's all Grier and it can be proven, so far, based on evidence, his arrow is pointing up. That's all.
WADR, you were the one bothered. You and others, simply cannot accept that other people don't think generic definitions of the GM position are enough to indict the job someone did. I mean, these past two offseason were dramatically different than the ones prior. That alone is more actual evidence he hasn't had the power you claim he did, then a generic job title does.
Ray R
Club Member
That is the definition of 100% blame.
I was trying to say that if he was in charge of scouting, then he had to have had a lot to do with who we picked. Not just since he’s been the GM. I do think he tends to reach and play it safe a bit much for my liking in the early rounds unless the obvious guy (Tunsil, Tua) falls in our laps. That said, there are a lot of other teams that don’t draft any better and you’re right - if Shula drafted better from 1984 onward (minus 1990) we would have won a couple of SBs. The Bills drafted awesome. And yet we were always on their heels by a game or even winning the division on a tie breaker once in 1992 because of Dan. Their roster was a HOF who’s who. Ours was Marino and that’s kinda it. So I agree w your point. Just trying to say that pre GM, Grier was responsible for the recommendation that got served up to Jazzy Jeff Ireland, Tanneclown etc.
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My 2 cents...
I’ve been very critical of Grier for a few years now. But in my mind, it’s not without warrant. You see, the Dolphins haven’t drafted well in years. Many Years. Grier has been part of that problem. You can debate how much of the problem he has been. However, you cannot deny he has been part of the problem.
As most of you are aware, an NFL team’s draft board gets put together by the GM and the scouts. I’m sure Tannenbaum had some say on the final board, but it was Grier and his guys that put Charles Harris on the board. Tannenbaum was not out in the field scouting guys. That is pretty close to a certainty. I also remember specifically hearing Bill Polian say on NFL Radio he had a way lower grade on Harris and didn’t consider him a good prospect at all. So who gets the blame? In my mind it’s Grier. The fact that Harris was ranked that high to begin with is an indictment of Grier and our scouting team. Who picked Harris? I say who cares! Why was he on our draft board with a first round grade?
Do GM’s miss on prospects? Yes they do. But you have to at least hit on a certain percentage. I’m pretty sure Grier hasn’t hit even close to that percentage. How many first round picks from our last 6 drafts are still on the team? How about the rest of our drafts? Again, Grier falls short.
Let’s look at this Draft for another example. While the QB everyone wanted fell to 5, the rest of the draft was filled with reaches and draft picks that could have been taken at a later pick. In some cases, a lot later. Any good GM will tell you, the draft is about value. Tua was great value at 5. The rest of our draft? Not so much.
Is Chris Grier right taking the players he did at the spots they were taken this year? Maybe. Maybe I’m completely wrong. It’s going to be a year or two before we know. But...... History is not on Grier’s side in this case. And I’m pretty sure you can’t argue that based on the facts.
Let me say this about Grier. He did get the coaching decision right in my mind. I was against Flores at first. I was totally wrong. Brian Flores is a rising superstar in the NFL. I’ll also give credit to Grier for the tear down of the Dolphins last year. He got rid of problems and got good return value. Again, what he’s done with that value so far is very much up for debate.
I’ve been very critical of Grier for a few years now. But in my mind, it’s not without warrant. You see, the Dolphins haven’t drafted well in years. Many Years. Grier has been part of that problem. You can debate how much of the problem he has been. However, you cannot deny he has been part of the problem.
As most of you are aware, an NFL team’s draft board gets put together by the GM and the scouts. I’m sure Tannenbaum had some say on the final board, but it was Grier and his guys that put Charles Harris on the board. Tannenbaum was not out in the field scouting guys. That is pretty close to a certainty. I also remember specifically hearing Bill Polian say on NFL Radio he had a way lower grade on Harris and didn’t consider him a good prospect at all. So who gets the blame? In my mind it’s Grier. The fact that Harris was ranked that high to begin with is an indictment of Grier and our scouting team. Who picked Harris? I say who cares! Why was he on our draft board with a first round grade?
Do GM’s miss on prospects? Yes they do. But you have to at least hit on a certain percentage. I’m pretty sure Grier hasn’t hit even close to that percentage. How many first round picks from our last 6 drafts are still on the team? How about the rest of our drafts? Again, Grier falls short.
Let’s look at this Draft for another example. While the QB everyone wanted fell to 5, the rest of the draft was filled with reaches and draft picks that could have been taken at a later pick. In some cases, a lot later. Any good GM will tell you, the draft is about value. Tua was great value at 5. The rest of our draft? Not so much.
Is Chris Grier right taking the players he did at the spots they were taken this year? Maybe. Maybe I’m completely wrong. It’s going to be a year or two before we know. But...... History is not on Grier’s side in this case. And I’m pretty sure you can’t argue that based on the facts.
Let me say this about Grier. He did get the coaching decision right in my mind. I was against Flores at first. I was totally wrong. Brian Flores is a rising superstar in the NFL. I’ll also give credit to Grier for the tear down of the Dolphins last year. He got rid of problems and got good return value. Again, what he’s done with that value so far is very much up for debate.
I'll be honest, your posting style is a bit exhausting so I stopped reading early on but I did skip to the bottom and you say you're not defending him except the literal only thing you're doing is spending an entire thread defending him.
I don't want to argue over Chris Grier - not even his own children would defend his performance the way you have.
Just one question - what does WADR stand for?
With all due respect
I'm not defending him. I've explained it, you admit you refuse to read it, then continue to say I'm doing something, I'm not.
THAT, is exhausting.