Charles Harris Traded. | Page 16 | FinHeaven - Miami Dolphins Forums

Charles Harris Traded.

Please pay attention because this has become tedious......

I DID NOT SAY HE DESERVES NO BLAME FOR HARRIS

I didn't say it, I didn't imply it. Was talking to someone else about the power Grier has had (or didn't have) in the past versus now.

Tedious are not you kept responding to me. You said early in the thread you never said Grier was bypassed on the Harris pick. I left it right there. Then you responded to reply I made to someone else about the same subject. So you can be rude or whatever you want to be but you're the one who kept choosing to do the tedious task of defending your position. Grier has been the top man that assessed college players for us over the last decade or more. He is just as much to blame for the sorry state of the team as anyone else. He has been GM for three years so he's just as responsible if not more responsible than anybody for the makeup of the team. If this draft in the next are successful much credit as he gets blame for the previous drafts. it's not some genius move to be able to trade a guy for a 7th round pick that you was part of drafting in the first damn round.

If it was a brand new GM that had zero to do with drafting that garbage ass defensive player then you get praised getting something for almost nothing.

That is exactly what started this whole conversation.
 
I'm not sure how the message keeps getting lost on you, but Grier hasn't had the power you think he does. Hell, you are even contradicting yourself, by giving him equal blame no matter what position title he held.

You blame him for everything. Fine, do that, enjoy yourself, live in your absurdly binary world all you want, but why try to argue that with everyone else? I mean if you only see three shapes and like two colors in the world, why argue that's all there is with people who see more?


It isnt about total blame, it's about being a part of Davie for over a decade....In vital positions and the lackluster results

I'm happy these past 2 years, and absolutely thrilled so far in 2020.

But let's not sweep Griers own accountability in the situation that resulted in our need for a rebuild.
 
Can you imagine Grier walking in to Flo's office . . .
"Dude, we made a mistake drafting Harris. I just traded him.'
Flo; 'W-h-a-a-t?'

Or:

Flores: “I think we can agree that Harris isn’t in the plans for this team’s future.”
Grier: “Yeah, I’m gonna see if I can get anything for him.”
 
It isnt about total blame, it's about being a part of Davie for over a decade....In vital positions and the lackluster results

I'm happy these past 2 years, and absolutely thrilled so far in 2020.

But let's not sweep Griers own accountability in the situation that resulted in our need for a rebuild.

I think there’s a lot to be said for having an owner, GM and HC on the same page with a vision for the future of a team.

I am of the opinion that last year was the first year in a very long time that has been the case, without a figurehead like Tannenbaum in there muddling things up.

Now, Grier’s job (as I see it) is to help fulfill Flores’s vision for the direction of the team...and to hold Flores accountable for performance. Ross holds Grier accountable for signing off on it.

It’s not that difficult of a concept unless an organization MAKES it difficult, which the Fins did for decades. Grier isn’t guiltless during that time, but I sure as hell don’t think he’s the main culprit, or he’d be doing guest commentary on TV instead of Tannenbaum.
 
Grier did draft Harris so deserves some blame but let’s not ignore the fact that the GM is working with other staff such as the head coach and getting them players they say they want. You can’t just draft players the coach doesn’t want so Gase deserves blame as Grier for that one. Now flores is telling Grier what kind of players he wants and you can see the difference
 
The overall change is philosophy is evident in this draft alone. 4 men over 310 pounds were added to the trenches in the draft.

Charles Harris is 236 pounds and has small frame. That type of player is never going to be on Brian Flores DL.
 
I think there’s a lot to be said for having an owner, GM and HC on the same page with a vision for the future of a team.

I am of the opinion that last year was the first year in a very long time that has been the case, without a figurehead like Tannenbaum in there muddling things up.

Now, Grier’s job (as I see it) is to help fulfill Flores’s vision for the direction of the team...and to hold Flores accountable for performance. Ross holds Grier accountable for signing off on it.

It’s not that difficult of a concept unless an organization MAKES it difficult, which the Fins did for decades. Grier isn’t guiltless during that time, but I sure as hell don’t think he’s the main culprit, or he’d be doing guest commentary on TV instead of Tannenbaum.
This is the reality, in a nutshell.

The convoluted structure was ridiculous, from all outward appearances.

You can't have success if all the voices are not on the same page, with a single vision.

Sporano was probably a decent "coach"....in 1990....but was inflexible. Queesy was just gutless, and even if he had a clear vision, didn't have the will to force implementation of it. Gase......well....just a bad hire that had tunnelvision of ignoring the D side of the ball, not considering player strengths/weaknesses, horrible with person relationships, and worhless in talent evaluation.

I'm rambling now, but point is, we now seem to have an org, with a clear "vision", all pulling in the same direction.

Is it gauranteed to succeed? No, but any other way is almost assuredly destined for failure.
 
It isnt about total blame, it's about being a part of Davie for over a decade....In vital positions and the lackluster results

I'm happy these past 2 years, and absolutely thrilled so far in 2020.

But let's not sweep Griers own accountability in the situation that resulted in our need for a rebuild.
Agreed. If he didn’t pick Harris directly, it was his scouting dept that had him rated so highly and served him up. I think the point really is Grier has had a massive influence on WHO we draft for about 20 years. And we haven’t been one of the better drafting teams. So he has to shoulder some of the blame - if not a lot of it - for whiffs and reaches like Charles Harris.
 
Tedious are not you kept responding to me. You said early in the thread you never said Grier was bypassed on the Harris pick. I left it right there. Then you responded to reply I made to someone else about the same subject. So you can be rude or whatever you want to be but you're the one who kept choosing to do the tedious task of defending your position. Grier has been the top man that assessed college players for us over the last decade or more. He is just as much to blame for the sorry state of the team as anyone else. He has been GM for three years so he's just as responsible if not more responsible than anybody for the makeup of the team. If this draft in the next are successful much credit as he gets blame for the previous drafts. it's not some genius move to be able to trade a guy for a 7th round pick that you was part of drafting in the first damn round.

If it was a brand new GM that had zero to do with drafting that garbage *** defensive player then you get praised getting something for almost nothing.

That is exactly what started this whole conversation.
There are two different things being argued by you:

1. Grier is mostly responsible for Harris.
2. Grier is mostly responsible for the players we've drafted since before he even had the title of GM.

I never argued #1, because I don't know, neither do you, neither does any of us.
#2, is what I've argued with. I've argued it because you seem to be under the impression that Grier has been responsible for all the picks made, when he hasn't. All we know for sure is that he is responsible for the team since last year, when Ross actually put him in charge of the football side of things. He chose the coach. He chooses the players for that coach.

Before, Tbaum would have more say than him as his boss and the coaches (he didn't pick) would effectively have more say than him because they were chosen by his boss and it was his job to help them succeed. That means giving them the tools they request. You are talking about assigning blame as if it is a constant percentage of fault. For all you know, Grier had Harris ranked as the 5th best DE, and Gase or Tbaum punted the table for him to be picked where he was, again, you don't know & I don't know. Since we don't know, then how much blame can be assigned to him? Your argument is based on your incorrect perception that the title General Manager carries the same duties and power across the NFL.

Now, he has no one overwriting him. Now the coach he has to give tools too, is the coach he picked, so if the coach is wrong, then that falls on Grier.

Ask yourself, how can Grier's responsibilities change and his actual titles change, but the amount of blame he deserves for things good or bad, doesn't.
 
It isnt about total blame, it's about being a part of Davie for over a decade....In vital positions and the lackluster results

I'm happy these past 2 years, and absolutely thrilled so far in 2020.

But let's not sweep Griers own accountability in the situation that resulted in our need for a rebuild.
If you aren't putting a percentage on it, then assigning blame means effectively nothing. It's like totaling your car because it won't start without first finding out of if the engine is shot or if it just out of gas.

What if Grier thought Harris was the 3rd best DE at the pick they used, but he was overruled by Gase or Tbaum pounding the table? Does that carry the same amount of blame if Grier was the one pounding the table for Harris? Of course not.

We don't know what happened, so we cannot effectively assign blame in any meaningful way. But with the way the power structure is set up now, we can going forward. Everything going forward starting from last offseason is 100% on Grier. He chose the coach, he choses the players. The only person that can override him is Ross and i think we'll know if a move is Ross driven or not. Now we will know how good or bad Grier is.
 
Agreed. If he didn’t pick Harris directly, it was his scouting dept that had him rated so highly and served him up. I think the point really is Grier has had a massive influence on WHO we draft for about 20 years. And we haven’t been one of the better drafting teams. So he has to shoulder some of the blame - if not a lot of it - for whiffs and reaches like Charles Harris.
I really think "massive influence for 20 years" is absurdly overstating his role for most of those years.

I understand, and somewhat agree with his detractors to a point. Our drafts have been below, sometimes far below expectations. That was even true in Shula's late career.

I don't believe, however, that Grier had all that much infuence for the first (roughly) decade and a half of his time here.

How many of the decisions for the last 5 years were his is debatable, and fair game for discussion, but to blame him for things that went down 10-20 yrs ago is ludicrous, IMO. Because of the cluster**** that our FO has been recently, we really don't even know who wanted what.

I'm not saying he gets a pass, but a little perspective might be prudent.

He has righted the salary cap, jettisoned players who were underperforming contracts (he has given out a couple that were head scratchers), and set us up with draft picks.

I absolutely get the arguement that he is not the greatest evaluator, but he addressed that percieved shortcoming by bringing in respected ppl for that responsibility.
 
Your kidding right? A GM’s biggest role is constructing a roster. You know that a GM is a coaches boss right? On the food chain a GM is above a coach. Why do you think a lot of coaches want to add GM to their title? So they can “buy the groceries” as Bill Parcells used to say. So you think Harbaugh drafted all those players in Baltimore and not the great Ozzie Newsome? Do you think Garrett was pulling the strings in Dallas? I think Jerry and Steven Jones would argue that.
Sorry coaches unless they have dual titles do not make picks, scouts do not makes picks, owners not named Jerry Jones don’t make picks.
If my chief job is to put together a winning roster I damn sure may listen to suggestions but ultimately I am picking who I think will make us successful.
In 20 years to say this mans fingerprints have some how not been on this organization is ludicrous.

It's apparent we'll have to admit you see no middle ground. I'll defend my position this time and I'm done.
If you want to argue Grier is responsible for the team that creates the board and advises, I'm with you. I've said a few times, Grier is responsible for the organization. He saw weaknesses and brought in highly reputed professionals to address those weaknesses. will they work. That remains to be seen.

There seem to be too many who refer to 'buy the groceries' without context. Parcells was hired by Kraft. Kraft, a new owner, has admitted he micromanaged. He was involved in draft, trades, sat in on game-plan meetings. THAT is what prompted Parcell's infamous quote - someone with no football knowledge making decisions. Parcell's, to be fair, wanted to be in charge of EVERYTHING - drafting, evaluating, negotiating contracts, negotiating trades - all that stuff.

Harbaugh? Newsome? You know there is a middle ground. Harbaugh and Newsome, Jones and Garrett, Reid and Veach, Grier and Flo - I have the realistic view. The GM DOES NOT go into a closet on draft day and go by his board. No chance. Nada. He does not create his board in that same closet. No GM does. It's called collaboration. Now, realistically, BB and Harbaugh have more influence than Sparano. everyone know that. If you think the GM will consistently overrule BB and harbaugh, we are clearly at an impasse. The GM DOES NOT, by himself, draft, or release, or trade. That's well outside Reality county. Imagine Flo wanting Tua and Grier drafting Igbo at #5. How long would Grier have his job? He doesn't want Flo going to Ross - 'well, Mr. Ross, look at the evidence. We just won 4 games. How many would we have won if I'd had my way and drafted Tua?' That's why GMs don't have or want total control. That's one reason for collaboration.

How many people are HC/GM? There's a reason for that. If that were a known advantage in the NFL, every HC hired would be hired as GM/HC. Why is harbaugh/BB not clamoring to be GM and 'buy the groceries?'

Finally, I've never absolved Grier from his mistakes. He was in the room so he acquires some of the blame. Which parts? Neither you nor I know. Claiming we do is just imagination run wild. Personally, what is important to me is his decisions as 'the man' - his chance to 'buy the groceries' to some extent. He's made decisions I don't like. Not spent money I think he should have. Spent money I don't think he should have. But he DID NOT surprise Flo with 'guess what. I just traded Minkah.' Or, 'I had the chance to trade up for Wirfs, but I liked Austin better. Live with it.'
 
Tedious are not you kept responding to me. You said early in the thread you never said Grier was bypassed on the Harris pick. I left it right there. Then you responded to reply I made to someone else about the same subject. So you can be rude or whatever you want to be but you're the one who kept choosing to do the tedious task of defending your position. Grier has been the top man that assessed college players for us over the last decade or more. He is just as much to blame for the sorry state of the team as anyone else. He has been GM for three years so he's just as responsible if not more responsible than anybody for the makeup of the team. If this draft in the next are successful much credit as he gets blame for the previous drafts. it's not some genius move to be able to trade a guy for a 7th round pick that you was part of drafting in the first damn round.

If it was a brand new GM that had zero to do with drafting that garbage *** defensive player then you get praised getting something for almost nothing.

That is exactly what started this whole conversation.

Grier has hit on 3 out of 4 first round picks since becoming the GM.
 
If you aren't putting a percentage on it, then assigning blame means effectively nothing. It's like totaling your car because it won't start without first finding out of if the engine is shot or if it just out of gas.

What if Grier thought Harris was the 3rd best DE at the pick they used, but he was overruled by Gase or Tbaum pounding the table? Does that carry the same amount of blame if Grier was the one pounding the table for Harris? Of course not.

We don't know what happened, so we cannot effectively assign blame in any meaningful way. But with the way the power structure is set up now, we can going forward. Everything going forward starting from last offseason is 100% on Grier. He chose the coach, he choses the players. The only person that can override him is Ross and i think we'll know if a move is Ross driven or not. Now we will know how good or bad Grier is.

We know what happened. Grier has owned up to the Charles Harris pick, but guess what?

idgaf

All GMs fail with some of their picks sometimes, even first rounders. Everyone just wants to pile on because of past transgressions.

Mike Tannenbaum doesn't work here anymore.
Dennis Hickey doesn't work here anymore.
Dave Wannstedt doesn't work here anymore.
Jeff Ireland doesn't work here anymore.
Rick Speilman doesn't work here anymore.

Some of you guys need a trip to South America to purge the poison from your brains. Dolfan PTSD :lol:

 
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