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Matthews is great getting after the QB and Misi is only OK, but both players go all out and are a pest to the teams they play.
CK's Draft Reviews: Miami Dolphins Wrap Up
- Thread starter ckparrothead
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Matthews is great getting after the QB and Misi is only OK, but both players go all out and are a pest to the teams they play.
mikethewreck
Just a fan...
History reminds me that as well as you have analyzed these guys-and I take off my hat and say, "bravo, bravo" for a job well done-someone in the draft will surprise us. It may be Spitler showing up Edds, or Oghobaase winning a starting spot. Perhaps one of the DBs will step up. We won't know until the pads are on and the bodies start flying. I do feel much better about the draft and how the draftees fit into our system. Perhaps Nolan not only is improving our defense but also our drafting. I think last year you had reason to criticize the Hartline pick, but the intangibles took over and we ended up with a player who made solid contributions his rookie year.
Any word on the Montana TE coming to minicamp? Could Nalbone have made some strides from last year? I know a lot of us wanted to see a TE drafted but maybe the Trifecta thinks they have enough young TE prospects already.
Any word on the Montana TE coming to minicamp? Could Nalbone have made some strides from last year? I know a lot of us wanted to see a TE drafted but maybe the Trifecta thinks they have enough young TE prospects already.
thejetssuck
Seasoned Veteran
CK for future GM of our Miami Dolphins!!!!! Give him a call Ireland!! Start him in the scouting department!!! 
All I ask Mr. Ireland, is that you don't blow it by asking if his mom is a prostitute.:foundout:
Great write ups from all 3 of you though!
All I ask Mr. Ireland, is that you don't blow it by asking if his mom is a prostitute.:foundout:
Great write ups from all 3 of you though!
mikethewreck
Just a fan...
After hanging around us, CK can handle ANY question. Even the dumb ones...
Great review, and videos. I particularly appreciated the Koa Misi breakdown, which may have been uploaded after the Sun Sentinel article.
From those clips, Misi had more moments against TCU than my memory. That game was an avalanche, 55-28, and Hughes dominated. I remember labeling Utah as softer than 2008 in the aftermath of that game, so I may have unfairly undervalued Misi.
As I posted in a YouTube comment a little while ago, Universal Draft crew separates with classy attention to detail, breaking down by category and an easy to spot box around the player. Many similar videos do it once and expect you to tag along for the duration, no matter where he lines up. It falls in line with their tremendously detailed and insightful write ups.
Misi is growing on me, great motor. Yeah, I get nervous when we choose someone from that region, considering the lousy football I've witnessed at Sam Boyd Stadium.
Often I've walked/staggered out of that stadium with buddies, prompting a frequent summation from one of us, "Can you believe we bet on that cr**?"
From those clips, Misi had more moments against TCU than my memory. That game was an avalanche, 55-28, and Hughes dominated. I remember labeling Utah as softer than 2008 in the aftermath of that game, so I may have unfairly undervalued Misi.
As I posted in a YouTube comment a little while ago, Universal Draft crew separates with classy attention to detail, breaking down by category and an easy to spot box around the player. Many similar videos do it once and expect you to tag along for the duration, no matter where he lines up. It falls in line with their tremendously detailed and insightful write ups.
Misi is growing on me, great motor. Yeah, I get nervous when we choose someone from that region, considering the lousy football I've witnessed at Sam Boyd Stadium.
Often I've walked/staggered out of that stadium with buddies, prompting a frequent summation from one of us, "Can you believe we bet on that cr**?"
ckparrothead
Premium Member
Great review, and videos. I particularly appreciated the Koa Misi breakdown, which may have been uploaded after the Sun Sentinel article.
From those clips, Misi had more moments against TCU than my memory. That game was an avalanche, 55-28, and Hughes dominated. I remember labeling Utah as softer than 2008 in the aftermath of that game, so I may have unfairly undervalued Misi.
As I posted in a YouTube comment a little while ago, Universal Draft crew separates with classy attention to detail, breaking down by category and an easy to spot box around the player. Many similar videos do it once and expect you to tag along for the duration, no matter where he lines up. It falls in line with their tremendously detailed and insightful write ups.
Misi is growing on me, great motor. Yeah, I get nervous when we choose someone from that region, considering the lousy football I've witnessed at Sam Boyd Stadium.
Often I've walked/staggered out of that stadium with buddies, prompting a frequent summation from one of us, "Can you believe we bet on that cr**?"
LOL.
Unfortunately I've walked out of Dolphin Stadium thinking the same thing.
Koa Misi seems to be a guy that grows on whoever looks at him, the more they dig into him. I say that just because Mike Mayock seemed to express the same thing during the draft, and after initially ripping the Dolphins for the whole Misi thing, Mel Kiper went back and looked more and he's completely backtracked and said the Misi pick was a smart pick and his pick for impact rookie.
I think there's legit concern that he's not an high impact pass rusher, but Nolan's defense is not one of those where the SOLB is going to relied upon as a continual source of pressure. He's not going to be a 70% rush guy, more of a 40-50% rush guy...which means that his overall pass rush snaps are probably going to be about 25-30% of his total snaps.
And I don't share hoops' concerns about him against the run. Perhaps if we were playing him at the same position that Utah often did, which was basically where Jared Odrick and Kendall Langford will be lining up for Miami (3-4 DE)...then I'd be concerned about him being moved out of the hole by combined efforts of a 330 lbs tackle and a 270 lbs tight end. Fortunately, he won't be facing those guys. He'll be facing just the 270 lbs tight end. And this is a guy that knocked 300+ lbs linemen onto their keesters in that video, a guy that did as many bench reps as Dan Williams, I think he's a guy that can play the tight end and not get dominated...and that's what a SOLB has to do.
Sometimes I think we get caught up in thinking about a guy needing to be 270+ lbs and look like a tank to hold up against the run over there, and I don't think that has to be the case. This is still an OLB position. If Koa Misi is getting double teamed out of the hole by a tackle/tight end combination on a stretch play, then Kendall Langford should be in there like swimwear making the tackle behind the line of scrimmage. And if he's blocked, then one of the ILBs should be completely free to knife in.
PhinsTD
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So does that mean you have concluded Misi was a better pick for this team than Jerry Hughes?
I believe I've concluded that he is, more because of his overall package of skills. I've long stated you can get a run stuffer at SOLB late, but that means spending two picks on a SOLB, or having to sign one. It's hard to find a player who can move in coverage like Misi, while also showing the upside against the run that he has.
Hughes is quite a bit better in pass rush, but would probably not be able to play 1,000 snaps like CK suggests Misi will. I'm not sure he has the skill set to ever be a strength in coverage, and projects as merely good against the run.
It's funny, but to me, they each hold something that can't be taught. Hughes has that explosive first step to rush the passer, and a knack for making a move to get to the QB when needed. Misi has the fluid movement skills and explosion for a guy his size and combines it with a great motor.
I'll probably be watching Hughes as he develops, but since he's with the Colts, it isn't an apples to apples comparison.
I believe I've concluded that he is, more because of his overall package of skills. I've long stated you can get a run stuffer at SOLB late, but that means spending two picks on a SOLB, or having to sign one. It's hard to find a player who can move in coverage like Misi, while also showing the upside against the run that he has.
Hughes is quite a bit better in pass rush, but would probably not be able to play 1,000 snaps like CK suggests Misi will. I'm not sure he has the skill set to ever be a strength in coverage, and projects as merely good against the run.
It's funny, but to me, they each hold something that can't be taught. Hughes has that explosive first step to rush the passer, and a knack for making a move to get to the QB when needed. Misi has the fluid movement skills and explosion for a guy his size and combines it with a great motor.
I'll probably be watching Hughes as he develops, but since he's with the Colts, it isn't an apples to apples comparison.
ckparrothead
Premium Member
No I think I would rather have Hughes but that's no big deal, Hughes was rated higher on my board and I think his ability to rush the passer is more rare and valuable. Part of the thesis on Misi is that Cameron Wake is the real deal. What if he's not? Misi's not going to be the guy that wears the sombrero as the primary rush threat and it's difficult to find those guys that can rush the passer effectively and be the primary rush threat. Hughes was that kind of player, and he also had the kind of agility that allows Koa Misi to be so good in space.
Now, if Koa Misi becomes a superb SOLB for us, and Cameron Wake becomes a superb WOLB for us, then picking Misi has a higher absolute ceiling IMO than picking Jerry Hughes. I say this because in a best case scenario where Hughes becomes the player he looks like, except at the NFL level not just the college level, and if Wake becomes the player we hope he is, then that still doesn't mean they'll work well together. We've tried TWICE now to get guys like Joey Porter and Jason Taylor to work well opposite one another and it just hasn't worked out either time. I don't think it would work particularly better with Hughes and Wake.
So, taking Misi instead of Hughes is more of a gamble, has a higher ceiling, a lower floor, and to make up for that increased risk the Dolphins got to take Jared Odrick at #28 instead of someone like Linval Joseph at #40.
Now, if Koa Misi becomes a superb SOLB for us, and Cameron Wake becomes a superb WOLB for us, then picking Misi has a higher absolute ceiling IMO than picking Jerry Hughes. I say this because in a best case scenario where Hughes becomes the player he looks like, except at the NFL level not just the college level, and if Wake becomes the player we hope he is, then that still doesn't mean they'll work well together. We've tried TWICE now to get guys like Joey Porter and Jason Taylor to work well opposite one another and it just hasn't worked out either time. I don't think it would work particularly better with Hughes and Wake.
So, taking Misi instead of Hughes is more of a gamble, has a higher ceiling, a lower floor, and to make up for that increased risk the Dolphins got to take Jared Odrick at #28 instead of someone like Linval Joseph at #40.
PhinsTD
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Good reply. I like your thoughts on it.
In a vaccuum, I have Hughes rated quite a bit higher than Misi, and I agree it's tougher to get the elite pass rusher than the run stopper, solid coverage guy. That's basically a Matt Roth in overdrive...not a bad player at all, but Hughes could be a star.
Your point about a reflection of their thoughts on Wake is a good one. That's why I think Misi is a better fit, but that's with the assumption Wake is a stud pass rusher like I believe.
Wouldn't Hughes and Wake be a better fit than Taylor and Porter because Wake has proven he can rush from the strong side, and Hughes fits as a WOLB, when both Taylor and Porter rushed better from the weak side?
In a vaccuum, I have Hughes rated quite a bit higher than Misi, and I agree it's tougher to get the elite pass rusher than the run stopper, solid coverage guy. That's basically a Matt Roth in overdrive...not a bad player at all, but Hughes could be a star.
Your point about a reflection of their thoughts on Wake is a good one. That's why I think Misi is a better fit, but that's with the assumption Wake is a stud pass rusher like I believe.
Wouldn't Hughes and Wake be a better fit than Taylor and Porter because Wake has proven he can rush from the strong side, and Hughes fits as a WOLB, when both Taylor and Porter rushed better from the weak side?
hoops
Tua time!
i'll tell you exactly what i would have done...at #28 i would have grabbed jerry hughes...pass rush on a wolb is paramount...its an endorsement of cam wake that imo they decided to pass...but i wouldn't have done it...i would have taken hughes and let wake rush with his hand in the dirt where he's most comfortable...same type of pass rush off the edge as wake much more comfortable moving laterally and change of direction and in space in hughes and imo more comfortable standing up...no doubter for me
outside of that jared odrick i think was a great pick if we were planning on moving starks to the nose...guys a terrific 3-4 end prospect and imo brings an ability to shoot gaps with quickness and upfield pass rush and power hand usage ability that will be unmatched on our current roster in short order...puts philip merling to shame on tape imo...
at #40 i think you know my thoughts ck already...if it's between kindle, misi, and worilds as a solb with that pick and thier all there staring me in the face i grab the guy who went like 10 picks after our 2nd rounder in jason worilds...why you ask???
well for starters from a pure edge pass rush stand point these 2 aren't on the same level...worilds is explosive and has that first step quickness unmatched in this draft as evidenced by his de/olb leading 10 yard split time...not even close imo as a edge pass rusher
worilds like misi has an initial punch on contact that can rock a tackle back and has explosion upon impact...from a run d stance worilds for my money as i said a good while ago plays the run better than any other 250 de to olb convert in the draft...and if i'm not mistaken you ck echoed those same sentiments...can misi handle an in line te??? sure...but so can jason worilds
yeah worilds didn't do a whole lot of dropping into soft zone coverages at va tech or stand up as much as misi did on tape but for my money it was hughes and worilds who looked the best in lb drills at the combine...hughes and worilds showed the best pedal when asked to drop staying low and balanced and the ability to put their foot in the ground and explode forward or out of breaks and the ability to drop their hips and bend at the knees like no others in drills...admittedly followed closely by misi who was very smooth and fluid in drills...
if its me i'm betting that worilds can do the exact same things from a coverage aspect as misi and has more burst and acceleration to the ball...my concern with worilds would be given that he's unfamiliar with this role he may not have initially quite the same awareness or feel in space but i'd bet on that coming in time...
yeah worilds is an inch and a half shorter than misi but he has more upside and imo talent than misi and provides a much more formidable edge pass rush...
i can also say that from looking at those misi cuts that to my eye jason worilds makes a lot more of those plays in the backfield that misi either overran of just failed to make the tackle on...jason worilds gets double digit sacks in misis role in that utah defense...no question to me...basically doubles misi's sack production...
bottom line is i'm going with the possible unknown in pass coverage based off what i saw and how good and fluid worilds looked in lb drills the same level roughly run defender in worilds as misi and the much higher pass rush upside in worilds...
if pittsburgh can roll the dice on that shoulder at like pick #50 i damn sure can at #40... i'm going with jason worilds...
outside of that jared odrick i think was a great pick if we were planning on moving starks to the nose...guys a terrific 3-4 end prospect and imo brings an ability to shoot gaps with quickness and upfield pass rush and power hand usage ability that will be unmatched on our current roster in short order...puts philip merling to shame on tape imo...
at #40 i think you know my thoughts ck already...if it's between kindle, misi, and worilds as a solb with that pick and thier all there staring me in the face i grab the guy who went like 10 picks after our 2nd rounder in jason worilds...why you ask???
well for starters from a pure edge pass rush stand point these 2 aren't on the same level...worilds is explosive and has that first step quickness unmatched in this draft as evidenced by his de/olb leading 10 yard split time...not even close imo as a edge pass rusher
worilds like misi has an initial punch on contact that can rock a tackle back and has explosion upon impact...from a run d stance worilds for my money as i said a good while ago plays the run better than any other 250 de to olb convert in the draft...and if i'm not mistaken you ck echoed those same sentiments...can misi handle an in line te??? sure...but so can jason worilds
yeah worilds didn't do a whole lot of dropping into soft zone coverages at va tech or stand up as much as misi did on tape but for my money it was hughes and worilds who looked the best in lb drills at the combine...hughes and worilds showed the best pedal when asked to drop staying low and balanced and the ability to put their foot in the ground and explode forward or out of breaks and the ability to drop their hips and bend at the knees like no others in drills...admittedly followed closely by misi who was very smooth and fluid in drills...
if its me i'm betting that worilds can do the exact same things from a coverage aspect as misi and has more burst and acceleration to the ball...my concern with worilds would be given that he's unfamiliar with this role he may not have initially quite the same awareness or feel in space but i'd bet on that coming in time...
yeah worilds is an inch and a half shorter than misi but he has more upside and imo talent than misi and provides a much more formidable edge pass rush...
i can also say that from looking at those misi cuts that to my eye jason worilds makes a lot more of those plays in the backfield that misi either overran of just failed to make the tackle on...jason worilds gets double digit sacks in misis role in that utah defense...no question to me...basically doubles misi's sack production...
bottom line is i'm going with the possible unknown in pass coverage based off what i saw and how good and fluid worilds looked in lb drills the same level roughly run defender in worilds as misi and the much higher pass rush upside in worilds...
if pittsburgh can roll the dice on that shoulder at like pick #50 i damn sure can at #40... i'm going with jason worilds...
ckparrothead
Premium Member
I had Koa Misi rated higher than Jason Worilds. Koa Misi has experience playing linebacker. Jason Worilds does not. Worilds is really not that much more impressive in pass rush to make up for that. Hughes is, but not Worilds.
And for my money, the best looking Combine drill participants at LB were Koa Misi, Thaddeus Gibson, Jerry Hughes and Keenan Clayton.
I rated them all on a 1 to 5 basis and Jason Worilds' Combine drills only got a 3 out of me where the above guys got 5 out of 5.
Worilds can play the run but he didn't show he could do it from a standing position, because he was never asked to do that, where Koa Misi not only was asked to do it regularly at Utah, but he also played behind the line as a linebacker all through the Senior Bowl week and during the game. He was a fish in water. And that's why he went ahead of Jason Worilds.
And for my money, the best looking Combine drill participants at LB were Koa Misi, Thaddeus Gibson, Jerry Hughes and Keenan Clayton.
I rated them all on a 1 to 5 basis and Jason Worilds' Combine drills only got a 3 out of me where the above guys got 5 out of 5.
Worilds can play the run but he didn't show he could do it from a standing position, because he was never asked to do that, where Koa Misi not only was asked to do it regularly at Utah, but he also played behind the line as a linebacker all through the Senior Bowl week and during the game. He was a fish in water. And that's why he went ahead of Jason Worilds.
hoops
Tua time!
there are some definite unknowns with worilds...
but i'd say given that another 3-4 team in pittsburgh used a high round pick on him they believe in his ability to play standing up...run or pass
this isn't a situational pass rusher pick imo given how high he was drafted...pittsburgh believes in him as an every down player...
whether or not he's viewed as a weakside or strongside backer by the steelers is up for debate at this point...
if you ask me we went for the safe pick...and i hate the word safe...misi has played lb worilds hasn't...doesn't mean worilds can't play lb or won't be very effective at it...and pittsburgh is again betting on worilds being a high level 3-4 olb...
but just to be clear i had a late 2nd early 3rd round grade on misi...i just would have preferred worilds
but i'd say given that another 3-4 team in pittsburgh used a high round pick on him they believe in his ability to play standing up...run or pass
this isn't a situational pass rusher pick imo given how high he was drafted...pittsburgh believes in him as an every down player...
whether or not he's viewed as a weakside or strongside backer by the steelers is up for debate at this point...
if you ask me we went for the safe pick...and i hate the word safe...misi has played lb worilds hasn't...doesn't mean worilds can't play lb or won't be very effective at it...and pittsburgh is again betting on worilds being a high level 3-4 olb...
but just to be clear i had a late 2nd early 3rd round grade on misi...i just would have preferred worilds
I don't think the comparisons between Misi and Worilds in space are even there. Worilds moves heavier in space. Also, this leads me into thinking of Worilds and Misi as blitzers. I don't know how great Worilds will look rushing from the standing position. I'm inclined to think that Misi's quickness and change of direction ability will help him a great deal - especially if he's running a stunt-blitz (if that's the term for it), where he's crossing from OLB to rush inside or vice-versa.
And, Wake will likely primarily rush starting with his hand in the ground - much like Dumervil last season.
And, Wake will likely primarily rush starting with his hand in the ground - much like Dumervil last season.