Commentary: Now It's Officially Over | Page 2 | FinHeaven - Miami Dolphins Forums

Commentary: Now It's Officially Over

Brsdd said:
Anyone who thinks that taking Poole in the 4th round was a bad move, is a complete moron and does not deserve the time of day to have his garbage article discussed. Seriously, that had to be one of the most ignorant football statements I have ever seen. Poole was 1st round talent, who we stole in the 4th round.

The defensive line was thin of depth. Especially with O-Gun about to be leaving. The linebackers are very old. And the saftey position lacked speed. Not to mention Miami had a terrible offense in general. Every other position on the team pretty much was a need positoin, and we are drafting a dime back when we already had 3 high priced corner's on the team.

And what did we steal? We draft Poole, as a rookie he was a dime back who played some, but not much. And he is out for all of this season. I know you can't predict injuries, but looking back TODAY (6/4/05) how can you say we stole Will Poole. He hasn't done anything and won't (if he ever does) at least until 2006!
 
MikeO said:
1) It doesn't matter how good O-Gun is since leaving Miami. If he's a bomb or if he is a hall of famer, it doesn't mean anything. It's about getting the best trade value for him possible. Spielman didn't. Rick turned down better trades in April and waited till August. Then in August it was a take it or leave it with Chicago and Rick had no leverage and took the only offer on the table. That is a sign of a bad GM. He should have made the move in April and got MORE value than what he got in August.

2) And you say the article is anti- Wanny, Spielman, and Fiedler (among others). Which one of these guys do you want to defend? And which one's do you still want in Miami today? And which one were you happy with their results? Im dying to hear.

3) You among others say the article isn't objective. It's not supposed to be. It's a commentary. It's a writer presenting an opinion. This isn't an AP news report, its a column. Objectivity isn't needed in a column. The "fair and balanced" rule doesn't apply. It's someone laying out his thoughts and or opinion on a subject. As long as the truth isn't being misrepresented (which is isn't) then you can agree or disagree with the stance being taken in the column, but the writer doesn't need to be objective. All the writer must do is just give his opinoin and back it up using facts. You may disagree with the writers conclusion, that is what makes a good columinist usually. As reasonable people can look at a subject with the same set of facts laying out in front of them and come to different conclusions. So saying it isn't objective makes no sense as this column or any column for that matter isn't supposed to be objective by nature. This isn't a news report. There is a difference in reporting and writing a column.

Dude...in my opionion this commentary offered me nothing that the other 80,000 posts on this same subject didnt already do. It would be like me writing a commentary on the entire Ricky fiasco. It basically took one side of the entire Wan-Spielman era and restated everything that every other person who hated that group had to say. I didnt like em either. Im glad to see em all go. Do I like some of the players we ended up getting? I do. I think Booker is far better than average. I dont think Gordon is always injured. I think he could possibly be a pro bowl back in the right system. Is he better than Brown? Probably not.

In closing..if your going to take the time to write a commentary on something...at least be original in your thoughts. Otherwise..it sounds like a broken record.
 
MikeO said:
1) It doesn't matter how good O-Gun is since leaving Miami. If he's a bomb or if he is a hall of famer, it doesn't mean anything. It's about getting the best trade value for him possible. Spielman didn't. Rick turned down better trades in April and waited till August. Then in August it was a take it or leave it with Chicago and Rick had no leverage and took the only offer on the table. That is a sign of a bad GM. He should have made the move in April and got MORE value than what he got in August.

2) And you say the article is anti- Wanny, Spielman, and Fiedler (among others). Which one of these guys do you want to defend? And which one's do you still want in Miami today? And which one were you happy with their results? Im dying to hear.

3) You among others say the article isn't objective. It's not supposed to be. It's a commentary. It's a writer presenting an opinion. This isn't an AP news report, its a column. Objectivity isn't needed in a column. The "fair and balanced" rule doesn't apply. It's someone laying out his thoughts and or opinion on a subject. As long as the truth isn't being misrepresented (which is isn't) then you can agree or disagree with the stance being taken in the column, but the writer doesn't need to be objective. All the writer must do is just give his opinoin and back it up using facts. You may disagree with the writers conclusion, that is what makes a good columinist usually. As reasonable people can look at a subject with the same set of facts laying out in front of them and come to different conclusions. So saying it isn't objective makes no sense as this column or any column for that matter isn't supposed to be objective by nature. This isn't a news report. There is a difference in reporting and writing a column.

No smoke and mirrors here, excellent post and points!! Tip of the old hat!
 
All These Players That Everybody Is Down On, Didn't Have A Coaching Staff That Was Worth Diddily. Good, Bad, Or Otherwise, Players With With Good Coaching Excel. I'll Keep My Opinions To Myself, Until After Training Camp!
 
ArticleNinja said:
Discuss this article or suffer dire consequences: http://www.finheaven.com/cms/147.html.

With that said, the way the team was built and set up before those two were removed from the roster, this team was still probably a 4 win team at best. Maybe a couple wins better at most, and I would even debate that.

Wanny built the team, no GM can make as many needed changes in one offseason, and even if he can, the COACH has to put the team on the field and make it happen...Wanny did not....

--Trades a second round pick for AJ Feeley. Mind you, this is the same off-season where a 2nd round pick could have nabbed you Terrell Owens or Corey Dillion! AJ Feely wasn't the starter going into Week 1 last year and there is a very good chance he won't be the starter going into Week 1 this year. Total and complete waste of a 2nd round pick. This isn't a knock on AJ Feeley, it is just a rookie GM overpaying in a trade for a player who isn't worth what he gave up for him.

Why would RS have gone after Dillon ?? At this time, we still had Cracky Williams. Why would we have gone after a WR with more obvious holes elsewhere. BTW, neither were available when the trade was made. You will always overpay for in a trade for QB..that is a fact. Who's real fault is it though that AJ wasn't successful ?? Wanny is the guy who did not give the guy a chance, not RS. Wanny waffled back and forth all the way until after the start of the season, there was NO offensive scheme, NO offensive coordinator of any consequence, and finally what scheme that we ran was based on having a Ricky Williams in the lineup and was never adjusted for his absence. Will AJ be the next Favre ? No, I don't believe that either, but what if RS had gotten Warner, Garcia, Brunnell, or any other of the washed up QBs that were available ?? Would they have been any better...NO WAY. Back of RS on the AJ thing...it was destined to not work out since Wanny didn't believe in the move...period.

--Prior to the 2004 season the Dolphins offensive line was downright terrible. Players like Tim Ruddy, Todd Perry, Todd Wade, and Jamie Nails were run out of town. Who did Rick bring in to replace these people? The answer is essentially nobody. How can the biggest weakness on your team get essentially no attention in your first off-season as GM? We enter the 2004 season with an offensive line worse than the one the year before.

St. Clair, McIntosh, James, Carey...with holdovers Smith and McKinney...While the OL was clearly the biggest weakness of the team last season, they did improve thru the year. St. Clair had a decent year, but was projected to be a backup, not a starter. Big Mac was coming off major ankle surgery and wasn't supposed to be available until midseason, but came back early and that hurt his progress and his effectiveness. He was playing well towards the end of the year...He was playing well for SD prior to his injury and left via free agency. HH wanted to keep him there. James had a poor year overall, but was the starting LG for the SB Panthers team that ran the ball down people's throats all year long. When he was acquired, he was considered a very good pickup...Smith was not a "Wanny" guy and never had a chance to make any progress. He may not be a great LT, but he can play, but again, was not a Wanny guy...Same with Carey...Wanny wanted another undersized LB drafted and was dissapointed that we got Carey instead. He was NEVER given the chance to be successful. Tony Wise couldn't have coached the GB Packers 1967 OL to victories. His blocking scheme was not suited to the personnel he had and he never adjusted that scheme. The offensive scheme was not adjusted for life w/o Cracky and that was the major downfall of the year. Isn't it funny that Saban and HH have come in and save for McDougle, not changed the OL personnel ?? What does that tell you ???

--Oh wait, then there was Vernon Carey. And the trading of a 4th round pick to move up 1 spot, yes 1 spot to take Vernon Carey. The same Vernon Carey who couldn't crack the starting lineup on maybe the worst offensive line in the entire league last year. Why give up a 4th round pick to take this guy? Once again, Rick overpaying in a trade for a guy who isn't worth it. Take Vernon at the spot Miami is drafting, no problem. If he is a bust there, you don't complain. Give up a pick to move up to take him and if he is a bust, then you have a serious issue with the decision making of the GM.

Now, Carey himself has stated that the Pats had him on the phone when he got the call from Miami. We moved up one spot to get him and ended up getting that pick back in another trade and picked up Will Poole to boot ?? How is that a bad thing ? Overpaying...are you saying he is a bust already, after one season where he wasn't coached well, in a poor scheme and not one of "Wanny's" guys ?? The jury is still out on Carey...It's way too early to tell...Take Carey at our spot...what if he wasn't there...what if the Pats had drafted him ?? You would have been all over RS like stink on ----, wouldn't you have ?? You have to give this one another couple of years to pan out...


--The O-Gun situation was a total and complete joke on every level. It started the day after the 2003 season eded when the Fins knew going into the off-season that O-Gun was going to hold-out and if he didn't get an extension he wasn't showing up for training camp, Week 1, and pretty much he wasn't showing up until he had to by league rules. Miami couldn't pay him, it wasn't even an option. Spielman sat on his hands and did nothing except get into a pissing contest with Drew Rosenhaus. February, March, nothing....April...draft day. Trade offers for O-Gun are coming in, Spielman does nothing. May, June, July....still nothing. Come August when Spielman realizes that O-Gun isn't kidding around and he isn't showing up, he is forced to make a bad trade with the Bears. Yes, Marty Booker is a good player but you don't trade the conference leader in sacks for an average wide receiver. That is just bad value. Not to mention according to numerous reports, Spielman turned down better trade offers for O-Gun the week of the NFL Draft.

There was no intent to pay Ogun the money HE thought he was worth...While he was clearly an above average DE, well balanced in both run and pass support, he could not have been paid what he wanted here. The worst case was to hold onto him, even if he held out (which might not have happened at all) and gone from there, perhaps franchising him this year to keep him, but making the move he did...trading for a PB WR and a compliment to Chambers (which we desperately needed as well) and having the flexiblility to pick up a RB when we had to later on was a good deal. And if Cracky hadn't gone bonko would have given Saban some more ammo...(I digress tho). Booker is more than an average WR, although he wasn't able to show it last year. And again, so what if he turned down trade offers...were they any better than what we got for him ?? You and I don't know that and time was always on our side with that entire situation...

--Lamar Gordon trade was a disaster in every way shape and form. Gordon was an injury prone player in St.Louis, anyone who is anyone in the league knew this. Speilman claiming he watched tape of every play Gordon had in the NFL, goes out and gives up a 3rd round pick for Lamar Gordon. Another panic move in the wake of Ricky leaving made by Rick Spielman that didn’t pan out. Just because Ricky left doesn't mean you once again overpay for a middle of the road player. And as expected, Gordon doesn't last more than 1 game and goes down to a season ending injury. Surprise Surprise!

Well, whether Gordon can or is a better player than he showed last year is NOT known to you or I or anyone else. Gordon was a decent backup to Faulk. The Rams went after a home run hitter in Jackson (which you cannot blame them for) and made Gordon expendable. Most fans in KC were shocked that they went after a RB and wanted them to draft defense instead. At any rate, we are sitting here, with Minor and Morris...Minor has consistently proven he can't carry the load and even in his few carries hasn't been as good as was expected. Morris was an unproven backup in Buffalo, who had some potential. Then Minor goes down...then Morris...thus a move was made to get someone in the lineup that was healthy. That was also short lived. Is it RS fault because we had a run on injuries to one position like that ?? Is it RS fault that the O scheme was not altered to compensate for not having a RW in the lineup ?? RS did his job. He filled a hole that we needed filling...even if they figured that RW would be back, it was a necessary move because Minor had proven he couldn't do it and Morris was unproven...

--The Fins have Sam Madison and Patrick Surtian so Rick goes out and gives a big contract and a bad salary cap contract to Reggie Howard? Who? Exactly, Reggie Howard! Then, he uses a 4th round draft pick on Will Poole. Once again, how many defensive backs does one team need. No offensive linemen, no depth at defensive tackle, old linebackers and we keep adding corner after corner after corner.

Howard was a starter for a SB team. He was a pretty solid player for the Panthers. RS knew that he would most likely not be able to sign both SM and PS to longer deals, so this was a preemptive move. The mistake was that Wanny used Howard in the nickel spot, which is not his best position. It would have been better to use PS in the slot and Howard on the outside (IMHO) to utilize our players best talents, but Wanny didn't do that. Poole was a surprise that he was available at that time and considered by most as draft "steal"...Why would RS not go for that option ?? It was not a foregone conclusion that we could sign either PS or SM and keep CC and RM....As far as the number of DBs go...wait till you see this year...we are hurtin' in the DB area...We had already acquired OL, our we had depth with our starters healthy at DT and we had Moore coming back (Wanny's boy, who will be gone shortly here with Saban). The deal that Howard got was in the middle of the road as CBs go. Look at what PS wanted, although there is a difference in the play of the two. It's not an exorbinant (sp) contract for a player of his caliber...

Look, once Saban was hired, it was only a matter of time before RS was gone. His moves last year cannot be judge wholy yet. Could he have done better, perhaps. Spielman is a very good talent evaluator and will be a better GM given the chance. I'm sure he learned some things this past year...
But he will forever be linked to Wanny in Dolphinland and will never get any respect from most fans who don't look at the whole picture when evaluating how a coach or FO guy is doing...there is much more to his success or failure than the run-into-the-ground team and salary cap mess that Wanny left here.
My question is...If RS had stayed on here, and Saban turns the team around to respectible this year...does RS get any of that credit ??

Probably not...
 
Credit is given where it is due and Rick cut his teeth in Miami. Usually that means a mess and that's what we have but, when he re-surfaces if the Dolphins have tu;) rned it around on a dime, real football paople will see what part of that was his and give him his due!
 
Speilman is not all bad...2 productive rookie years, Will Poole, Pope, Bua...wait...holy shi%, he didn't do that much. HOORAY!
 
Be glad the voting on this article is off. It was biased regurgatated garabage. I could have read any of about 20 posts in the main forum and come to the same conclusion.
 
Good writeup.It basically reflects my views with a couple of exceptions.

Poole was BPA at the time he was drafted and even though we had no apparent need for a CB at that time perhaps they were anticipating that Surtain had to be traded.In fact it was the only pick he has made that I have ever liked.

I doubt Speilmans ability as a scout.Everywhere he has worked the drafting has been terrible .Whether he was ultimately responsible for the picks or not it was his job to provide the lists to whoever was making the choices.The Fletcher pick falls directly on his shoulders.

Booker is a good receiver and we needed a slot receiver at that time but a better deal could have been made earlier on if Speilman had been a better negotiator.Rosenhaus took him to school on the Ogun deal and it made other players take notice which is why his services are so highly sought after now.He should buy Speilman a Ferrari with all the extra money he has earned after that deal.

Often overlooked was his complete disregard of injury histories and character problems of players he wanted to bring in or draft.The D-Mac signing was amateurish and unprofessional almost comical in its ineptness.

Unlike some of you here I doubt he will ever be a GM again.The errors he made in one year will scare anyone off.He proved to be a poor negotiator and if you are not a good negotiator you wont get the top jobs.At best I could see him being Chief Scout or personnel evaluator.

PS.I havnt given up hope on AJ Feeley.It was a tough situation for him last year.
 
Hindsight's 20/20
Put the decisions in the context of what was going on and then critique him.
 
MikeO said:
And what did we steal? We draft Poole, as a rookie he was a dime back who played some, but not much. And he is out for all of this season. I know you can't predict injuries, but looking back TODAY (6/4/05) how can you say we stole Will Poole. He hasn't done anything and won't (if he ever does) at least until 2006!
If it were not for an injury, Poole probably would have been a starter this year and a nickel back at worse. Good CBs are hard to find in the NFL, a starter or nickel for a 4th round pick is indeed a steal. The 4th round is all about value. Also, with Surtain contract coming due and Madison's skills declining, CB was a position of need. You're arguement is so far off base on every level, it's about as senseless as the discussed article.
 
Woohoo! It's Finally Over! I Never Thought I'd Live To See This Day! It's A Miracle! We Can Start Winning Again!:d
 
Didn't agree with anything except with trading a 4th to move up one spot for Carey.Other than that, Rick did all he could to keep this team afloat IMO. The horrible circumstances he was forced to deal with were like no other I've ever witnessed.....

A 2nd for Feeley seems like a bit much, but when you look at it now, who else was there available???....Brunell??? Warner??? Garcia??? Collins??? None of those QB's could have done any better than Feeley IMO, not behind that OL....

Rick's first draft as GM was excellent. Almost every player contributed. A couple look to be future starters like Pope / Poole / and Hadnot. I thought Rick had a better draft in year one than Dave had in three years of handling the GM duties. Maybe that's just me.....

As for the article, I didn't like it all....

PHINZ RULE!!!
 
Back
Top Bottom