Dan Marino or John Elway

[Finole]

This debate has gone on for a long time.

Elway was a great QB. In some ways more exciting than Marino b/c he won a lot of games with his legs - that enhanced his popularity with the media hypesters.

However, as one who carefully watched every season Marino and Elway played, There is no doubt Marino has to have the edge.

Marino was equally as clutch as Elway throughout their primes. The one difference between the two is that Elway had a better defense all through his career. If Elway had the Dolphins Defense of the late 80's Denver never would have made it to the playoffs, let alone the SB. There were countless games in which Marino engineered great 4th quarter comebacks, only to see the defense lose the game after Marino had tied it or put Miami in the lead. I would argue that Marino would have had equally as many if not more 4th Q comebacks as Elway if not for this.

When Denver made it to the SB in the late 90's, Elway was still a playmaker and a force. Especially his leadership. However, Denver had the best running game in football at the time as well as a great defense and a coach who knew exactly how to coach Elway and have an offense that suited him.

Miami never had any of this.

Marino NEVER had a running game, period. The closest he had to a good RB was Tony Nathan, who was really a good receiving back, a great 3rd down back, but never an every down back. The offensive line was awful at run blocking. They were finesse oriented through most of Marino's career - and that includes Sims and Webb.

Marino NEVER had a good defense, let alone a great one until he was in his last 2-3 years (and then it was good, but vanilla) and he was not the same QB.

The only guy I know at ESPN who recognizes that you can't rate QB's on the basis of SB victories is Eric Casillias. He continually makes this very valid point, based on the fact that football, more than any other major sport is won by teams not individuals. Basketball? 1 player in 5 can dominate a game. Baseball? A pitcher can close the door on a great team. But, a QB can have a dominant game, literally destroying the competition, yet lose b/c his defense is horrific.

Dan Marino is the greatest modern-day example of this. No game epitomizes it more than the 1986 game against the Jets at the Meadowlands - which the Dolphins lost 51-45. Marino threw for 448 yards, 6 TD's and 2 INT's. No matter how you slice it, those stats should NEVER Result in a loss!

Awesome post! Marino's QB rating in that Jets game was 112.8



Here's another way to look at it. I call it "The Vanderjagt Argument."

Last year, when Mike Vanderjagt missed that last-second kick in the playoff game against Pittsburgh, everybody said Peyton Manning lost again. But if Vanderjagt makes that kick, all of a sudden, everybody would have said Manning won the game!

His QB rating in that game was 90.9...

Manning throws for 290 yards 1 TD and no INTS, Vanderjagt misses the kick, and Manning can't win the big game!

Manning throws for 290 yards 1 TD and no INTS, and if Vanderjagt makes that kick... Manning lead his team to victory!

You see what I'm saying? Without altering Manning's performance one iota, he could have been considered a hero rather than a loser.

And you could clearly read Manning's lips on the sideline. He threw his arms up in exasperation and said, "He missed it." He knew that was one of the defining moments in his career.

 

[Marino420TD]

Wow, it seems as though everything collapsed on them in the biggest game of the year! Sounds like to me our defense wasn't that good for the last few games of the year with all the lineup being decimated by injuries. It's unfortunate that nothing comes to fruition when it counts the most. Sort of how the Colts ended up 14-2 last season and choked in the playoffs. Marino did have his competition met with going up against Montana I know of that much. But thanks for breaking that down...:wink:

Towards the end of the 84 season, our defense was getting pounded, but most other teams could not stop us, so we still won. I mean, we gave up 28 points against Mark Malone and the Steelers in the AFC title game. This was the biggest question going into the SB, was if our defense could put up a fight.

 

[Marino420TD]

Awesome post! Marino's QB rating in that Jets game was 112.8



Here's another way to look at it. I call it "The Vanderjagt Argument."

Last year, when Mike Vanderjagt missed that last-second kick in the playoff game against Pittsburgh, everybody said Peyton Manning lost again. But if Vanderjagt makes that kick, all of a sudden, everybody would have said Manning won the game!

His QB rating in that game was 90.9...

Manning throws for 290 yards 1 TD and no INTS, Vanderjagt misses the kick, and Manning can't win the big game!

Manning throws for 290 yards 1 TD and no INTS, and if Vanderjagt makes that kick... Manning lead his team to victory!

You see what I'm saying? Without altering Manning's performance one iota, he could have been considered a hero rather than a loser.

And you could clearly read Manning's lips on the sideline. He threw his arms up in exasperation and said, "He missed it." He knew that was one of the defining moments in his career.

Great post. There are way too many key plays that occur in a game with YOUR QB ON THE SIDELINES, to lay it all on his feet.

Take the 90 playoff at Buffalo. We're getting killed 3-20, Marino brings us back to 27-30 in the 4th quarter. The game was decided on 2 plays late in the 4th quarter, with Marino on the bench. 1st: our LB dropped an INT near midfield, with us down 27-30. The Bills score a TD right after. 2nd: we fumble the KO, the Bills score a TD. Now it's 27-44. We lose 34-44. Marino has an excellent game in the snow, yet we lost.

 

[Finole]

Great post. There are way too many key plays that occur in a game with YOUR QB ON THE SIDELINES, to lay it all on his feet.

Take the 90 playoff at Buffalo. We're getting killed 3-20, Marino brings us back to 27-30 in the 4th quarter. The game was decided on 2 plays late in the 4th quarter, with Marino on the bench. 1st: our LB dropped an INT near midfield, with us down 27-30. The Bills score a TD right after. 2nd: we fumble the KO, the Bills score a TD. Now it's 27-44. We lose 34-44. Marino has an excellent game in the snow, yet we lost.

Thanks, man.

Yeah, that Buffalo game was rough. And there is proof again that the QB shouldn't always take the blame for a loss or the credit for a win. Special teams and defense are a big part of the game.

Marino even ran one in for a TD! Remember that?

 

[DolfinDave]

Thanks, man.

Yeah, that Buffalo game was rough. And there is proof again that the QB shouldn't always take the blame for a loss or the credit for a win. Special teams and defense are a big part of the game.

Marino even ran one in for a TD! Remember that?

Where is enigmatics on this thread? I'd love to see him sit here and tell us Elway had some intangible that Marino didn't. He would come up with somethig like Elway made Terrel Davis and his whole defense better because of some indefinable characteristic that only Elway had.

 

[DolfinDave]

“The year we beat Miami in the Super Bowl, ... do you know how many defensive linemen were in our rotation? Nine, and we used them all quite a bit. We just wore the Dolphins out.”

That is a quote from Bill Walsh. That is one reason Miami didn't win the Super Bowl that year. The fact that Marino had to throw the ball 50 times in that game didn't help.

 

[shadpop]

marino/elway.

as for greatest of all time----neither one--both great but not 1 or 2. both fun to watch and had great runs. you want a debate--add Montana, Favre ( toughest qb ever IMO ) maybe Young ( after Tampa Bay ). then you have steeler fans with bradshaw ( not on my list- the team he had was unbelievable). for dallas fans--Aikman? the only lock that i feel is the greatest reciever---RICE--hands down. also Namath for putting the AFL on the map. the point is that there is no correct answer for this question--there is also no wrong answer if that fan feels commited to their opinions. for you--marino was the best. for me--Montana. fun debate though. lots of good ammo on both sides. great beer talk.

 

[sdotbailey]

Sorry, but I've always said Elway was the greatest Qb to play the game. He went through more o coordinators than marino, his receivers weren't nearly as good and yeah, he benefitted from a decent (at best) running game a couple times until Davis came along, but he carried those teams more often than not. He played much better in the playoffs than Marino did unfortunately. we can't continue to blame everything else but Marino during those playoff losses. He didn't exactly always light it up - we sure could have used a running game though and I wanted to choke Stoyanovich in 94.

But, Elway is better over all than any one else to play - Marino, Montana, Bradshaw, Namath, Unitas, Fouts, Tarkenton, all of them. But, Marino was easily the best pure passer ever.

 

[DolfinDave]

Marino had 4510 yards, 32TDs and 24INTs in the playoffs.
Elway had 4964 yards, 27TDs and 21INTs in the playoffs.
Elway had 6 games with more INTs than TDs in the playoffs.
Marino had 6 also.
In 22 playoff games, Elway attempted 650 passes and completed 355 of them.
In 18 playoff games, Marino attempted 688 passes and completed 385 of them.

Those numbers in the playoffs look pretty close to me, with a slight edge to Marino given he played in fewer games and had more attempts, completions, yardage, and TDs.

 

[Stitches]

I still love the Bill Walsh quote(someone on the board had/has it in thier sig):
"Joe Montana was a product of the system; Dan Marino was the system."

I'm not saying Elway was a product of the system, as he dominated an always offensive heavy Pac-10. However to say Elway himself was a system is a stretch. Marino and Peyton I feel will be the only players you can say that about once Manning hangs it up.

 

[Funkymonks]

It sounds to me that the guy you got into this discussion with is a little jealous that Marino is still so popular with the fans and Elway isn't (at all really). Don't get me wrong, Elway is still regarded by most experts as one of the best of all time, the guy just doesn't (and never did) have the fan base that Marino enjoys.

its because Elway isn't as entertaining to watch. Just look at the way elway stands in the pocket. He looks in control but he doesn't have that presence that Dan had. Plus the Bronco were hardly ever had as many fourth quater comebacks. that is the diference between dan and john.

 

[Nappy Roots]

its because Elway isn't as entertaining to watch. Just look at the way elway stands in the pocket. He looks in control but he doesn't have that presence that Dan had. Plus the Bronco were hardly ever had as many fourth quater comebacks. that is the diference between dan and john.

your kiding right?

maybe i cannot understand what your saying behind that english... are you saying Elway was boring, didnt have a presence, and didnt have "as many fourth quarter combacks"?

 

[Da 'Fins]

Awesome post! Marino's QB rating in that Jets game was 112.8



Here's another way to look at it. I call it "The Vanderjagt Argument."

Last year, when Mike Vanderjagt missed that last-second kick in the playoff game against Pittsburgh, everybody said Peyton Manning lost again. But if Vanderjagt makes that kick, all of a sudden, everybody would have said Manning won the game!

His QB rating in that game was 90.9...

Manning throws for 290 yards 1 TD and no INTS, Vanderjagt misses the kick, and Manning can't win the big game!

Manning throws for 290 yards 1 TD and no INTS, and if Vanderjagt makes that kick... Manning lead his team to victory!

You see what I'm saying? Without altering Manning's performance one iota, he could have been considered a hero rather than a loser.

And you could clearly read Manning's lips on the sideline. He threw his arms up in exasperation and said, "He missed it." He knew that was one of the defining moments in his career.

Great point. Absolutely great point.

It shows the complete absurdity of the majority of pundits who denigrate Manning. How ridiculous.

You could go the opposite. How great is Tom Brady if Vinatieri chokes on two clutch FG's in two SB's? "He can't win the big one." He'd have been compared to Fran Tarkenton.

 

[Roman529]

Living here in Colorado for the past 30 years, I saw pretty much every single game that Elway played in. He was an amazing QB, with a great arm, excelent running ability, and he was a winner. I also got to see most of Marino's games, and I would put say he was just as good as Elway, if not better. Elway had better RB's, and a better line. I would put Marino, Elway and Montana as my all-time best 3 QB's..

Marino will always be my favorite player.

 

[where's th'fish]

Elway threw too many interceptions and not enough touchdowns, he was inconsistent and had a relatively low completion %, he took a long time to pan out, but of course, he won 2 Super Bowls, and that's the reason this is even an issue. Yeah, Elway could run really well, and he made plays no one else could -like Michael Vick. He could also come from behind very effectively (although many fans may not be aware of it, Fiedler was pretty good at it too -check the numbers). Now, to come from behind, you have to be behind, and Marino was behind a lot because his team just couldn't keep up with the opposition, but Elway's teams were behind a lot too, except in that case he was part of the reason why. Mark my words: if Vick ever gets a little better, wins too Super Bowls, and plays a really long time, people will compare him to Manning, because those are things that stick to memory, and that amaze people long after they've forgotten all the mediocre things that happened just before or just afterwards.

Marino, on the other hand, got rid of the ball faster, made better decisions, was a stronger leader, was more consistent and more productive, and could carry a team on his shoulders 24/7, and not just for 2 minutes a game. And he still moved very well in the pocket, which helped him avoid a lot of sacks.

Then again he never won a Super Bowl, so Elway must be the best after all.

By the way, I read a serious study, with serious stats, in which Unitas and Staubach would be counted as two of the best ever, among the older QBs. I would add Montana and Marino, and there you have it.