ESPN's PTI on Zach and his Probowl Selection

[nyjunc]

You would say Gastineau was a far better pass rusher than Taylor, maybe even a better play maker than him too. You know why, it's because your bias towards NY and all the teams going to the SB with the meda sucking their ***** about ******ed things.

Just get off the Dolphins board for a little while, chill and come back to earth.

OH, and for all you ***** that say "Zach is a well known pile-jumper", who the hell are you to say that he is and someone like Ray Lewis is not? It's because you *******s watch ESPN and NFL network and browse the net all day reading HYPE! You don't watch Miami games, therefore, GET OFF OUR PLAYERS CASES.

Gastineau was a FAR superior pas rusher to taylor, I think taylor is better all-around but DE's are judged by their ability to get to the QBa nd Gastineau was much better at doing so than Taylor.

I got a picture in my head of you laughing and rolling on the ground as you typed that. I bet you said to yourself "Oh my god, check out what crap I am gonna try to pass off on this forum." Did you make that statement on a bet?

In Jordan's last Finals in 1998 he shot the ball 164 times and had 70 FTA's, in last year's Finals Wade shot the ball 139 times and shot 97 FTs. Wade took 25 LESS shots yea attempted 27 MORE FTs.

How has Moss done without Daunte? The guy was obviously injured. He couldn't move for christ's sake.

Moss has given up but he did turn randall Cunningham into an MVP in 1998 and made Jeff george look like a good QB in '99.

it's not even worth debating this anymore. Jason Taylor is a HOFer. he just is. I am Sorry that he happens to play for us, and not you. I know that's the source of this debate, anyway.

It's settled then, you don't bring anything to the argument but as long as you say "he just is" that's good enough for me

I bet if he wore puke green, your tune would be completely different. BTW, Gastineu is not in the HOF because he never played the run in his entire career. A completely one dimensional player. very similar to Trace Armstrong.

DEs are judged on their pass rushing ability and he was dominant at getting to the QB. Again you have this misguided notion that I have these views b/c we are talking about dolphins. I said daunte was overrated for years before you guys got him, I don't think gastineau is a HOFer and last i checked he wore the "puke green", right?

He had 107 1/2 sacks in 10 seasons. JT has 105 with 2 games left in this season (his tenth). JT also has 7 career TD's, 6 INT's and 36 FF's. All of which dwarf Gastineus numbers. So no. Gastineu was not a better pass rusher. Try that one on somebody else who never saw him play. I did.

How do you know thopse #s dwarf gastineaus when there isn't a site that has Gastineau's FF's. I am sure INts and TDs do but Des aren't judged on INTs and TDs.

gastineau played in 137 games, Taylor has already played in 154. Gastineau lost time to 2 strikes, had an injury that allowed him to play 10 games in '86 and retired after 7 games and 7 sacks in '88. Is 107.5 better in 137 or is 105 better in 154?

 

[Section126]

Gastineau was a FAR superior pas rusher to taylor, I think taylor is better all-around but DE's are judged by their ability to get to the QBa nd Gastineau was much better at doing so than Taylor.

Since Taylor is a better all-around DE than Gastineua, why are you comparing them? The discussion is about the HOF. BTW, Taylor is not done. His durability is also a consideration for the HOF.

In Jordan's last Finals in 1998 he shot the ball 164 times and had 70 FTA's, in last year's Finals Wade shot the ball 139 times and shot 97 FTs. Wade took 25 LESS shots yea attempted 27 MORE FTs.

Jordan had a more developed post game. He also began shooting ALOT of 18 Footers towards the end of his career. Wade attacks the basket from whistle to whistle. THAT'S HOW he gets calls. Stop hating and pay attention.

Moss has given up but he did turn randall Cunningham into an MVP in 1998 and made Jeff george look like a good QB in '99.

Jeff George put up very good numbers without Moss in Indy. Cunningham was a pro bowler before Moss got there. Your arguement has holes in it..to say the least.

It's settled then, you don't bring anything to the argument but as long as you say "he just is" that's good enough for me

It is settled. Sports writers vote for the HOF. he is considered, year in and year out in the top 2 or 3 DE's in the NFL, by the same writers that will vote. Sorry, but he is getting in. And on the first ballot no less. Just like Michael Strahan.


DEs are judged on their pass rushing ability and he was dominant at getting to the QB. Again you have this misguided notion that I have these views b/c we are talking about dolphins. I said daunte was overrated for years before you guys got him, I don't think gastineau is a HOFer and last i checked he wore the "puke green", right?

Gastineau was a one dimensional type of player. He is the reason Andre Tippet and Pat Swilling won't make it. Tippet/Swilling were great pass rushers as well, but they didn't make waves in other areas of their game. Like I said before, longevity is important as well. Taylor is in his prime NOW. Gastineu at this point in his career was on the decline. I think you should rip the writers and everybody else with eyesight, because JT is on the fast track to the Hall.


How do you know thopse #s dwarf gastineaus when there isn't a site that has Gastineau's FF's. I am sure INts and TDs do but Des aren't judged on INTs and TDs.

They dwarf his numbers because you can compare. Taylor has 3 more FF's in 10 years than Bruce Smith had in 20 years, he also has 3 more FF's than LAWRENCE TAYLOR for christs sake, and Bruce Smith and Lawrence Taylor are widely considered the best pass rushers of all-time. and remember...Jason Taylor is not done.

gastineau played in 137 games, Taylor has already played in 154. Gastineau lost time to 2 strikes, had an injury that allowed him to play 10 games in '86 and retired after 7 games and 7 sacks in '88. Is 107.5 better in 137 or is 105 better in 154?

How bout comparing Taylor's stats to guys that are already in? It's really funny that Taylor already has better stats than Lawrence Taylor and will bury LT's numbers by the time he is done...yet...you want to keep him out.

My god....if you just research it a little...it seems that if Jason Taylor doesn't get in ON THE FIRST BALLOT, it will be a travesty.

 

[dlockz]

I find it almost idiotic to have to defend Thomas's or Taylor's hall of fame credentials much less should Zach have gone to pro bowl. Al Wilson should not be in the pro bowl and neither should Lewis this year. There is a problem with the pro bowl many times and that it is basically a popularity contest and that has actually worked against Zach some years that he has put up great numbers. You can easily argue that Zach was among the best linbebackers of his era with only ray lewis probably being considered better than him during his career. If we were to win a superbowl than magically Thomas becomes this greater player ala John Elway. Zach has been a top level MLB for 11 seasons and should be in the hall. For three years even on this board we have heard that Zach cannot do this and its the scheme, which changed and he is still great. As for Taylor he is generally regarded as one of the best two De's of his era possibly Strahan may be higher touted with his superbowl and record breaking sack year. Taylor has 105 career sacks and 36 forced fumbles, 6 interceptions, 62 passes defensed and 7 touchdowns. Even these stats do not show the type of impact player that Taylor has been. Both of these guys stack up very well with the player's in the hall at thier positions.

 

[BgBruthaJuvi]

God forbid someone say one of our players is not the best ever, jeez sometimes people here amaze me with homerism. Zach is great, he deserves to be in the Pro Bowl (his HOF status is iffy, that should be for transcendent players only, he has been steadily very good but never amazing) and JT definitely should be in both especially if he plays at this level another two years.

But people here need to stop being so sensitive. Just because our players wear Fins unis doesn't make them untouchable. Tackles are overrated. Zach doesn't play in a 3-4, he plays in a 4-3 hybrid and has guys like Traylor clogging up blockers. Vilma has nobody and there are more LBs to move around and get tackles. Not to say Vilma is better (though that day is coming soon, Vilma is a great LB) now but tackles as a stat mean nothing. Ray doesn't have as many tackles for scheme reasons and cause he plays with other top LBs who also make big time plays. Sometimes its just a matter of luck, this year might have 5 or 6 deserving players at position that only lets in 3 or 4. Oh well.

But as much as you feel its your right to idolize a player and defend him blindly, you make yourself look silly as fans when you refuse to entertain someone elses opinion and collectively flame them. Fact of the matter is you are trashing people who doubt your favorite player because you see him play every week and they don't so clearly it is haterism and they are oblivious to our players' game impacting play. But how many of you have seen all of Baltimore's games or Denver's games? Most of you are blowing smoke when you say Ray doesn't deserve it because of his stats because you haven't seen him play enough to have an educated opinion. Makes you no better than people who doubt our players.

 

[Section126]

God forbid someone say one of our players is not the best ever, jeez sometimes people here amaze me with homerism. Zach is great, he deserves to be in the Pro Bowl (his HOF status is iffy, that should be for transcendent players only, he has been steadily very good but never amazing) and JT definitely should be in both especially if he plays at this level another two years.
But people here need to stop being so sensitive. Just because our players wear Fins unis doesn't make them untouchable. Tackles are overrated. Zach doesn't play in a 3-4, he plays in a 4-3 hybrid and has guys like Traylor clogging up blockers. Vilma has nobody and there are more LBs to move around and get tackles. Not to say Vilma is better (though that day is coming soon, Vilma is a great LB) now but tackles as a stat mean nothing. Ray doesn't have as many tackles for scheme reasons and cause he plays with other top LBs who also make big time plays. Sometimes its just a matter of luck, this year might have 5 or 6 deserving players at position that only lets in 3 or 4. Oh well.

But as much as you feel its your right to idolize a player and defend him blindly, you make yourself look silly as fans when you refuse to entertain someone elses opinion and collectively flame them. Fact of the matter is you are trashing people who doubt your favorite player because you see him play every week and they don't so clearly it is haterism and they are oblivious to our players' game impacting play. But how many of you have seen all of Baltimore's games or Denver's games? Most of you are blowing smoke when you say Ray doesn't deserve it because of his stats because you haven't seen him play enough to have an educated opinion. Makes you no better than people who doubt our players.

So basically...you agree with all the homers.

 

[Itsdahumidity]

God forbid someone say one of our players is not the best ever, jeez sometimes people here amaze me with homerism. Zach is great, he deserves to be in the Pro Bowl (his HOF status is iffy, that should be for transcendent players only, he has been steadily very good but never amazing) and JT definitely should be in both especially if he plays at this level another two years.

Wait a minute, what? C'mon man homerism? Any and perhaps all non-jets & bills football fans know how ZT has been a top MLB in his era. It's not just Dolfans. Transcendent players? Okay then tell us what other MLB has outplayed Zach(career-wise) since he's been in the league. We know Ray is getting in but please tell me who else. Or better yet, go back to the HOF page or hopefully if you can go by memory of watching some of the greats and tell me what seperates those LBs from ZT? Remember, the HOF is for individual career achivements so the SB knock won't fly.

But people here need to stop being so sensitive. Just because our players wear Fins unis doesn't make them untouchable. Tackles are overrated. Zach doesn't play in a 3-4, he plays in a 4-3 hybrid and has guys like Traylor clogging up blockers. Vilma has nobody and there are more LBs to move around and get tackles. Not to say Vilma is better (though that day is coming soon, Vilma is a great LB) now but tackles as a stat mean nothing. Sometimes its just a matter of luck, this year might have 5 or 6 deserving players at position that only lets in 3 or 4. Oh well.

First of all it's a different scheme than the one he played in for nine seasons so he dispelled the old dog new tricks myth. Second, hybrid no hybrid our base is a thirty four, he still has to beat either G on every play. Tractor clogs the center like the nose in any 3-4 does, but that still leaves blockers free especially when they double team him. So, Ray struggled in it but ZT is having one of his best seasons???

Why would you champion Vilma? I want to give you the benefit of the doubt and believe you're just a Phins/Canes fan which is cool, but IDK - your above paragraph is suspect. He's(Vilma) shown talent prior to this season, but what happened in his current defense? It's just his first yr in it, okay I give him that but I guess Zach was transcendent enough last yr not to have that problem.

Ray doesn't have as many tackles for scheme reasons and cause he plays with other top LBs who also make big time plays.

Are you serious? Wouldn't this support Zach's case since he doesn't play with other top LBs? And I thought you claimed tackles are overrated so why does the above quote read like an excuse?

But as much as you feel its your right to idolize a player and defend him blindly, you make yourself look silly as fans when you refuse to entertain someone elses opinion and collectively flame them. Fact of the matter is you are trashing people who doubt your favorite player because you see him play every week and they don't so clearly it is haterism and they are oblivious to our players' game impacting play. But how many of you have seen all of Baltimore's games or Denver's games? Most of you are blowing smoke when you say Ray doesn't deserve it because of his stats because you haven't seen him play enough to have an educated opinion. Makes you no better than people who doubt our players.

Sorry, no idolatry here just giving credit to one of the best MLBs in this era. I guess fans(yours truly included) who are pro ZT HOFer have decided to recognize his career now as opposed to waiting till after the fact & jumping on the bandwagon when it's announced.

 

[BgBruthaJuvi]

So basically...you agree with all the homers.

The issue isn't whether or not I agree with the homers. I believe Zach is a great LB and I believe the fan who came on here who disagreed with us is incorrect. But I don't think the reason Zach deserves to get into the Pro Bowl is because of tackles (I think overall play is what needs to be looked at something most fans aren't capable of doing, guys like DeAngelo Hall might have some INT stats but the other 80% of the plays they play they get burned, stats need to be valued less), and I don't believe we as a fanbase look like anything but crybabies whenever someone says something mildly negative about one of our players. The guy had a point, if you disagree thats fine, but look at the way people ganged up on him with tears in their eyes, refusing to accept that maybe he believes what he is saying is objective and not cause he hates the Fins.

 

[BgBruthaJuvi]

Wait a minute, what? C'mon man homerism? Any and perhaps all non-jets & bills football fans know how ZT has been a top MLB in his era. It's not just Dolfans. Transcendent players? Okay then tell us what other MLB has outplayed Zach(career-wise) since he's been in the league. We know Ray is getting in but please tell me who else. Or better yet, go back to the HOF page or hopefully if you can go by memory of watching some of the greats and tell me what seperates those LBs from ZT? Remember, the HOF is for individual career achivements so the SB knock won't fly.

First of all it's a different scheme than the one he played in for nine seasons so he dispelled the old dog new tricks myth. Second, hybrid no hybrid our base is a thirty four, he still has to beat either G on every play. Tractor clogs the center like the nose in any 3-4 does, but that still leaves blockers free especially when they double team him. So, Ray struggled in it but ZT is having one of his best seasons???

Why would you champion Vilma? I want to give you the benefit of the doubt and believe you're just a Phins/Canes fan which is cool, but IDK - your above paragraph is suspect. He's(Vilma) shown talent prior to this season, but what happened in his current defense? It's just his first yr in it, okay I give him that but I guess Zach was transcendent enough last yr not to have that problem.

Are you serious? Wouldn't this support Zach's case since he doesn't play with other top LBs? And I thought you claimed tackles are overrated so why does the above quote read like an excuse?

Sorry, no idolatry here just giving credit to one of the best MLBs in this era. I guess fans(yours truly included) who are pro ZT HOFer have decided to recognize his career now as opposed to waiting till after the fact & jumping on the bandwagon when it's announced.

Listen, I believe Zach deserves the HOF. I'm just saying its not a first-ballot case. I would have taken Urlacher or Lewis only in the past 10 years from the top of my head. My point isn't that I disagree with you guys. It's that people need to stop being sensitive, not everyone is going to agree with you, and obviously people are going to be biased cause we cover this team 24/7/365 and other people maybe a few times a year.

Our hybrid 3-4, 4-3 is productive for Zach because they move so many people around it gets tough to find Zach. Taylor at MLB in a 3-4 will confuse people enough to let Zach clean up. But because he plays with average LBs he is the one to do everything. Because Lewis plays with two great ones, his chances to make a play diminish, they don't necessarily mean he is less deserving. If he's about to blow a guy up but Thomas gets there first you can't say Ray didn't make a play. It doesn't diminish Ray's skills or performance, nor does the fact Zach plays with only solid teammates make him any better or worse. It just reflects on number of tackles, which I believe is overrated.

As for Vilma, hasn't he changed schemes 4 times in 4 years from college to the NFL now? Thats tough for someone entering the league. He is still productive. Despite his drop in tackles I wouldn't say his play has fallen. Zach is outplaying him but Vilma has a great future and it won't be long before he will be a yearly lock into the Pro Bowl.

 

[Springveldt]

My god....if you just research it a little...it seems that if Jason Taylor doesn't get in ON THE FIRST BALLOT, it will be a travesty.

Sorry got to disagree here. I don't think Taylor will make it into the HOF never mind be a first ballot.
He needs a few more years of double digit sacks before he will even be considered imho.

 

[Section126]

Sorry got to disagree here. I don't think Taylor will make it into the HOF never mind be a first ballot.
He needs a few more years of double digit sacks before he will even be considered imho.

His career stats disagree.

 

[PMZQ]

I think we all know the REAL reason Wilbon would want Ray over Zach...

I was thinking the same exact thing......:rolleyes2

 

[Finsfan13]

Zach is going to his 8th Pro Bowl... c'mon - that alone should be HOF consideration.

He is still performing at a top level - Leading the league in Tackles - it's incredible how he's been able to do that for this long.

Zach's biggest detriment to him getting HOF consideration is HIMSELF - he is not a self-promoter, he humbles his perception of himself and then uses that for motivation - any media comment will be him saying something he could have or should have done better...

Zach has been more consistent than Ray Ray through the years. Zach just doesn't tell everyone like Ray does. Meanwhile - Baltimore is just outside DC - where Wilbon is from... of course that would pull on his persuasion too.

OVERRATED - yes I would say Urlacher. Man, he has incredible size & he has great speed... did you hear him at all when we played them in October?

UNDERRATED - Tedy Brushki - when Rodney's in the game behind him - LOOK OUT - Tedy's got Zach-like dedication. I love to watch Zach & Tedy play.

Jason Taylor - going to Pro Bowl #5
Zach Thomas - going to Pro Bowl #8

We're wasting the time of two of the greats. Thank god they are good guys to represent the team day in and day out.... and they don't get mixed up in Homicides during Super Bowls - :dolphins:

 

[FinsNCanes]

How are tackles overrated for a LB? I find this odd. The man alone had 21 tackles or something like that against Buffalo. Say what you want..that's just insane.

 

[BgBruthaJuvi]

Obviously tackles are a telling statistic of a LB's play, but so many other factors have to be put in place. 21 tackles is an anomaly of a stat where yes if you get that many then you are a beast cause thats so out of the ordinary. But certain schemes direct traffic towards certain guys. Could be that they are running the ball a lot rather than passing and thus the player gets more opportunities. Could be that there are more plays in general to have tackles for. Might be that the other team feels that thats a weak area (either the DL in front of that LB or that LB in general) and can exploit it so they direct their offense towards a specific guy. Could be that most of the tackles were assists or whatever.

My point is that tackles are important, but they shouldnt be the defining factor in determining performance. Thats just looking at a stat sheet. Impact on the game, game changing plays, thats what makes a player worthy of a Pro Bowl selection. Thats why DeMeco isn't in. Ray deserves to be in for his efforts. Zach deserves to be in because he does both. But like I said, there are so many spots open and every year there are a glut of worthy players at a given position, oh well.

 

[twg76]

WIlbon said tackles aren't everything and Kornheiser said they are everything.

:sidelol: Then what the hell is "everything" from a LB?

INTs and sacks are good from a LB. You want to see some of each. But the LB position is ALL ABOUT TACKLES. It is about getting people down on the ground as quick as possible. Zach is a beast at LB.