F the Michael Vick apologists!

[84needs1000yds]

So we disagree. I think the league indeed should've "started with" others before Vick (like some of the guys we also mentioned) but since it didn't, I think Vick would be a good place to start.

Even though we don't agree, you know there are A LOT of people who agree with me. We are not PETA extremists. We are just dog-loving NFL fans and the NFL should ban Vick b/c it is a fan-driven league.

The NFL is a business. It makes its $ off its customers/fans. Why should it risk losing $ for a scumbag like Vick?

You said it your self NFL is a business... I gurantee they lose more viewers and fans by not letting Vick, (one of if not the biggest selling name in the industry prior to the trials) play again than banning him.

There are more likely more fans that want to see him play again compared to fans like you who don't

 

[Astrosback]

So Vick is now a Serial Killer? The instance you state above just prove the Kid had a lot of issues, does not mean everyone who abuses dogs is going to be a serial killer or a murder of humans.

Truth is, dog fighting is horrific, and is a sick twisted sport, that requires animals to do a certain task they don't willing want to do. Sounds to me like all sports involving animals is the same thing. **** fights, Hoarse racing, Dog racing, bull riding (Rodeos) and bull fighting. Vick is at fault, he got caught paid his price, but I highly doubt he turns into a serial killer, or took pleasure in torturing the dogs.

I just stated a fact. Many serial killers did start off in the rookie league of torturing animals. I never said it means that Vick will become Ted Bundy but it's certainly nothing great for the ol' resume either.

Again man - this isn't about PETA or special interest groups or the right of anyone to make a mistake, serve time and then move on with one's life.

This is about the PRIVELEDGE of playing in the NFL and I don't think Vick has earned that.

At the MINIMUM, he should have to prove he can stay out of trouble for AT LEAST a year on his own.


If he spent at least 1 year out of jail and also suspended from the league, and spent that time doing everything he could to atone (volunteering at the Humane Society, speaking out against animal cruely to the black community which has supported him), then MAYBE, maybe it would be more reasonable to reconsider him but right now, he doesn't deserve to be back in the NFL imo.

 

[GoonBoss]

holding Vick responsible for his crimes and wanting him banned from the NFL are not the same thing...they don't go together.

I do hold him responsible for his crimes, and thought he should go to jail and serve whatever time the judicial system determined.

He's done that so I wish no further punishment on the man....there's my mroal stand...if it doesn't meet the standards of dog-loving extremists such as yourself, I just have to find a way to live with myself.

So then you also think that nobody that commits a crime should be banned or suspended from the NFL?

Would you be ok with someone killing a person, say, in a DUI incident doing his time then, returning to the NFL with no suspension or penalty?

If so, then, I understand but do not agree with your view on the subject. This does not mean I equate dog killing to man killing. Simply the notion that if you have served jail time that pays all your penalties.

 

[dlockz]

Dogfighting is a passtime. If these guys also enjoyed the time they took hitting themselves in the head with a hammer, or cutting themselves, or perhaps electrocuting themselves I'd buy that they don't get pleasure from the act of doing these things to another living thing.

As far as dogs not instinctually killing each other or other living things.....That's simply not true. Dogs are pack animals by nature. The relationship between man and dog is an extension of the pack dynamic. I take in stray dogs. They socialize fine, but, occasionally, they do not. I've had to separate some of the dogs because they want to kill each other because of their place in the pack.

Even the most domesticated dogs, once they get together and in a pack, can and, will take down larger/smaller animals. This is why, minus the torture, I could nearly morally excuse dogfighting the way I excuse trophy hunting. If you treat your dog humanely until the point where you take them to fight another dog.....Ok...I'm not ok with it, but, like trophy hunting I can *almost* go there with you. That and if a dog is to be killed, there are ways to instantly do that...Not electrocute them or drown them to they are in abject terror in thier last moments.

There is only one way to get a dog that vicious and thats to train it through repulsive means. I had huskies who are much closer to thier nature than most dogs and even if they attacked other things there is a point at which the other animal basically gives up and there still was no blood lust to kill another dog or animal. I had a guy that actually had a fightig dog try to press charges against me because my dog messed his dog up. My dog got very lucky that the other dog locked down on his leg, messed his leg up but gave him every opportunity to mess the other dog up. I grew up around people that fought dogs and although I think they are messed up in thier thinking they are not serial killers in the making although anything is possible. They have no moral feeling about what they are doing, its another version of gambling to them. They look at it like they are training a fighter to a degree although they do whatever it takes to make them more vicious. Most dogs that are killed after a fight are seen as incapable of being a fighting dog anymore and have no other use to them. As bad as it is, you cannot equate that to doing the same with humans.

 

[DuderinoN703]

most people hunt for one purpose. They find it entertaining. I truly dont see how this is not so far removed from dog fighting. whats more perverse about hunting is its accepted to teach to kids.

I'd love to hear the statistical information on why folks hunt (they'd be honest you'd hope). It would make for good discussion IMO.

 

[GoonBoss]

How do you know he enjoyed that, maybe I am not as well versed on the issue, but I know he was not the only involved with raising these dogs, and I do not think he loved torturing these animals. He enjoyed the blood thirsty sport that brought money into his pocket, but I highly doubt you speak from experience.

If woke up in the morning and electrocuted himself, and, subjected himself to what he did to the dogs for his training regimine, I'd be willing to go along with you. He wouldn't do those things to himself or his kids, so, why would he do it to dogs for anything other than his sick pleasure?

 

[Astrosback]

So then you also think that nobody that commits a crime should be banned or suspended from the NFL?

Would you be ok with someone killing a person, say, in a DUI incident doing his time then, returning to the NFL with no suspension or penalty?

If so, then, I understand but do not agree with your view on the subject. This does not mean I equate dog killing to man killing. Simply the notion that if you have served jail time that pays all your penalties.

I know - can you even imagine how the widower of that lady who Leonard Little killed in a 2nd DUI offense feels when he turns on the TV, or goes to a game (I doubt he does) and hears people cheering for Little b/c he got a sack?

Well, Leonard Little served whatever punishment the court deemed and so I guess by this logic it's ok that the NFL gives him a stage to be cheered on.

That's what I'm talking about here. The NFL isn't just a normal job. It's a celebrity status.

 

[84needs1000yds]

If woke up in the morning and electrocuted himself, and, subjected himself to what he did to the dogs for his training regimine, I'd be willing to go along with you. He wouldn't do those things to himself or his kids, so, why would he do it to dogs for anything other than his sick pleasure?

So Vick woke up in the morning and said I can not wait to electrocute some dogs today... and did it with a big smile on his face? They electrocute humans as a way of the death penalty and the people working in the prisions probably do not enjoy throwing the switch nor do they volunteer to have it done to themeselves of their family.

 

[dlockz]

So then you also think that nobody that commits a crime should be banned or suspended from the NFL?

Would you be ok with someone killing a person, say, in a DUI incident doing his time then, returning to the NFL with no suspension or penalty?

If so, then, I understand but do not agree with your view on the subject. This does not mean I equate dog killing to man killing. Simply the notion that if you have served jail time that pays all your penalties.

I just dont see the moral superiority of being in the NFL.

Now if the NFL wants to ban anyone that ever gets a dui and so on then thats a differant story. I mean if you kill someone or not because of a DUI can be attributed to luck much of the time. We all look at Leonard Little as a horrible person because he ended up killing someone drunk but anytime a person drinks enough and drives this could happen. Because he was unlucky and stupid we see him as differant. I do understand its worse if someone is killed but the driver is basically not caring in either scenario.

I personally think someone that gets a dui should be excluded from some jobs including President but our former President and Vice President both had DUI's and nobody made much issue out of it. I dont think Football is so important that a DUI should preclude you from doing it though.

 

[Astrosback]

How do you know he enjoyed that, maybe I am not as well versed on the issue, but I know he was not the only involved with raising these dogs, and I do not think he loved torturing these animals. He enjoyed the blood thirsty sport that brought money into his pocket, but I highly doubt you speak from experience.

You should read more about the case. When faced with taking a lie detector test, Vick recanted previous testimony and admitted to personally participating in killing dogs via shootings, drownings (heads in buckets), electrocutions and hangings - not to mention the witnesses who tesitified to his attendance at dog fights.

 

[dlockz]

I'd love to hear the statistical information on why folks hunt (they'd be honest you'd hope). It would make for good discussion IMO.

Nobody is honest when it makes them look bad lol.

 

[NYinBostonFin]

So we disagree. I think the league indeed should've "started with" others before Vick (like some of the guys we also mentioned) but since it didn't, I think Vick would be a good place to start.

Even though we don't agree, you know there are A LOT of people who agree with me. We are not PETA extremists. We are just dog-loving NFL fans and the NFL should ban Vick b/c it is a fan-driven league.

The NFL is a business. It makes its $ off its customers/fans. Why should it risk losing $ for a scumbag like Vick?

The NFL isn't worried about losing its dog loving fanbase. You won't stop watching if vick is reinstated. And if you do, they will still make plenty of money.

I don't think it gives the players the right message either, starting with banning Vick. Do whatever you want, drinking while driving, beat your wife, but don't kill any dogs bc those crazy peta people will come out in droves and we dont feel like dealing with them.

 

[dlockz]

You should read more about the case. When faced with taking a lie detector test, Vick recanted previous testimony and admitted to personally participating in killing dogs via shootings, drownings (heads in buckets), electrocutions and hangings - not to mention the witnesses who tesitified to his attendance at dog fights.

Still has nothing to do whether he just enjoyed killing animals.
Its easy for me to say I feel that people that hunt are just satisfying thier primal urge to kill a living creature but that does not make it true.

 

[GoonBoss]

So Vick woke up in the morning and said I can not wait to electrocute some dogs today... and did it with a big smile on his face? They electrocute humans as a way of the death penalty and the people working in the prisions probably do not enjoy throwing the switch nor do they volunteer to have it done to themeselves of their family.

Was torturing the dogs something that brought him pleasure, or displeasure? You can't tell me it brought him displeasure. If I woke up and hit myself in the face, I'd probably go "Wow..That hurt. I don't think I'll do that again." And then, I wouldn't do it again. Vick liked it, or he didn't like it. He kept doing it, therefore, he had to like it. Maybe he had a smile on his face..Maybe he didn't. You don't have to smile to enjoy something.

Humans are electrocuted with enough voltage to kill them instantly because that has been one of the ways that has been held by society as a proper way to punish people that have engaged in certain, horrific crimes against society. The people that pull the switch have a job to do. What job was Vick doing? What crime did those dogs commit? Are you suggesting those dogs deserved to die?

 

[Astrosback]

I just dont see the moral superiority of being in the NFL.

Now if the NFL wants to ban anyone that ever gets a dui and so on then thats a differant story. I mean if you kill someone or not because of a DUI can be attributed to luck much of the time. We all look at Leonard Little as a horrible person because he ended up killing someone drunk but anytime a person drinks enough and drives this could happen. Because he was unlucky and stupid we see him as differant. I do understand its worse if someone is killed but the driver is basically not caring in either scenario.

I personally think someone that gets a dui should be excluded from some jobs including President but our former President and Vice President both had DUI's and nobody made much issue out of it. I dont think Football is so important that a DUI should preclude you from doing it though.

DUI is tricky though b/c of the risk to the community. I live in Miami. How do you think I would feel about the NFL if one of my loved ones gets killed by JD Quinn drunk driving again? Quinn is a two-time DUI loser who Tuna & Co. just signed for G/C depth. Is Tuna, or the NFL for that matter, thinking of my safety here on the streets of Miami?

It's not easy to set policy and sometimes, it might have to be on a case-by-case basis but I think we have some "cases" that pretty clearly should've been or should be LIFETIME BANS: Little, Phillps, Pacman, Vick.

Oh, and OJ Simpson should be removed from the HOF imo.