Fire Saban!

[adamprez2003]

Good post. Needed saying

I am going on the defense for some people and players who I should not have to defend. Yet many fans should not attack these people or players either.

Rick Spielman. I have heard so often "he sucks" yet there is no proof he has made a single bad move. Do you all believe AJ sucks so bad, Carrey will never play in the NFL, Will Poole was a bad draft pick in the fourth round, Gordon wasnt worth a 3rd, and we got robbed in the Ogun trade?

I got news for you all if you believe that. Our new god Saban has done many similar things. What has Saban done?

He brought in Gus Frerotte a has been or never was, He brought in a never was for the Oline, He picked Crowder in the third round that had first round talent ( why didnt we wait till the fourth like we did with Will Poole ), He drafted a running back yet our team was bloated with talent at RB plus Ricky is returning, and Saban got robbed in the Surtain Trade!

OK firing Saban was just a joke but if the dolphins flop this year how bad was RS really? What happens if Feeley performs quite well? What happens if Gordon becomes a premier back or even a decent back. What happens if Will Poole anchors our CB spot as a top corner for the next 5 years. What happens if Carrey turns out to be a great Olineman.

Yes I know there are alot of what ifs but Saban has nothing to show for himself either. Saban is the perfect example of what if right now! All of Sabans moves are what ifs right now! What if Brown gets hurt in preseason and sits out the year, what if bringing back Ricky destroys the teams morale, What if all of our FA signings get hurt or just plain dont perform well! Will we see fire Saban threads next year?

I know many people hated Wanny. I think that the fact Speilman was around Wanny is enough for most fans to want him gone. Personally I will wait a few years before calling the guy an idiot or moron. I will wait a few years before I praise Saban too!

As for the pickups Spielman made I will give them 2 to 3 years to prove themselves. Same goes for Sabans draft and FA pickups and trades!

P.S. I heard a person say trading Ogun for a third and Booker was a reason RS should be fired! Totally moronic. We got less, a lot less for Surtain.

 

[J Tes]

Surtain is 29, will be 30 this month. He played in 15 games last year and 15 the previous season.

O-Gun is 27 will be 28 in August. He only played in 11 games last year and 16 the previous.

Surtain is not that much older. And Ogun is just as vulnerable to injuries as Surtain.

Is this thread far fitched? YES!

But your research is a little off when you compared surtain and O-Gun.

You forgot to add that O-Gun was traded last year, when he was 26. Surtain will soon be 30. So at the times of there trades they had almost a 4 year difference in age.

 

[KillerDolphins]

Washington offered us a few, we turned each one down. Minnesota also. Details were never released, but the phone was ringing draft weekend.

Spielman didn't value draft picks.

Again thats just shear speculation on your part just like when you said Surtain is alot older then O-Gun and that we had leverage here but not there. You have no proof to back up your theories that Miami had better offers from teams in reagards to O-Gun. Washington was the only one i heard and that was reported locally. The others are a myth.

 

[TARHEEL38]

LOL!

The guy is trying to demonstrate how all the hindsight and second guessing could end up being applied to Saban if the same approach is taken to these moves everyone is now applauding (as they did with Spielman when those moves were made). He's right. You guys have such awful memory. Are you going to be screaming for Saban's head if he has the run of sheer bad luck that Spielman ran into? Yes, you probably will.

I have to respectfully disagree with you. The problem with the moves that RS made were not problems of hindsight. They are problems that many of us and other team offiicals had at the time. Everyone around the league were scratching their heads after the AJ deal. NOBODY thought a 3rd stringer who couldn't even start in college should be worth a 2nd round pick.

Most of RS's deals seemed to be knee jerk moves, AT THE TIME, and then would have to go unexpectedly well to prove us wrong, rather than go against the odds to turn out bad. All trades have an element of chance, but ya like to have the odds on your side. The moves RS made were for today, giving up on the future, where the odds of them coming out good, were long shots.

 

[Awsi Dooger]

It doesn't matter if OGUN is great or terrible in Chicago. RS wouldn't trade him at last years draft. Turned down great deals. And got stuck with the Chicago deal in August! :shakeno: :shakeno: What he does now is meaningless, his value at the time when he traded him is all that mattered. We didn't get equal value.

And Ty Law has foot issues, not a knee problem! :shakeno:

You can compare both trades. Saban got EQUAL value for Surtain. Spielman didn't get equal value for O-Gun.

MikeO, you simply have a far greater understanding of value and timetable than the posters who are criticizing your views. I tried to emphasize yesterday that Spielman never received harsh enough review for the incredibly ignorant timing of his decisions. You are exactly correct, Ogunleye should have been peddled prior to the 2004 draft, even if it meant draft pick(s) in 2005, not on the verge of the season when every team has unrealistic expectations and no one is willing to break up a roster they've crafted over an entire offseason. You always get lousy value at that point so of course it's the perfect timing for Spielman to make two trades.

He hysterically bit on Gordon right after the Rams showcased him in a preseason game. In fact, if you listen to the Rams' radio broadcast of that preseason game, the Rams' announcer says it's obvious the team is showcasing Gordon, very high number of carries despite coming off a recent leg injury, but he doesn't think any team will bite at the Rams' price since they know the Rams want to deal Gordon after selecting Stephen Jackson. I got that radio broadcast info immediately from two friends of mine in St. Louis, one of whom teaches at prestigious Washington University and is 100% reliable. Rick Spielman was probably the only NFL exec who had no clue that Gordon would be on the bench when the season began and his value would shrink accordingly over the following few weeks.

 

[Awsi Dooger]

You want to see how we did under RS. There is an easy and unarguable way to determine it. Let's look at the value of the three big moves RS made.

A.J. Feeley: What would teams give us for him? We paid a 2nd

Gordon: What would teams give us for him when healthy? We paid a 3rd.

Vernon Carey: WHat would teams give us for him? We paid a 1st and a 4th.

My guess. No one would give us a first day pick for Feeley or Gordon and Carey might get us a late first day based on potential, but no one would want to take on that contract.

Exactly, reverse the table and look in the other direction to properly gauge truth. If one of our division competitors had mangled the 2004 offseason in the manner Spielman did, acquiring the same players for the same tariffs, this board would have been a daily seizure of laughter for months.

I tried to use the same reasoning on this board prior to the draft to no avail. While everyone was projecting these incredible trade-down offers, even forming mock drafts giving us 5 or 6 picks in the top 50, I was asking if we would be desperate to move into the top two at the going rate if we had let's say the 11th pick. Not a single poster said yes but the trade down euphoria continued.

 

[Mike13]

I am going on the defense for some people and players who I should not have to defend. Yet many fans should not attack these people or players either.

Rick Spielman. I have heard so often "he sucks" yet there is no proof he has made a single bad move. Do you all believe AJ sucks so bad, Carrey will never play in the NFL, Will Poole was a bad draft pick in the fourth round, Gordon wasnt worth a 3rd, and we got robbed in the Ogun trade?

I got news for you all if you believe that. Our new god Saban has done many similar things. What has Saban done?

He brought in Gus Frerotte a has been or never was, He brought in a never was for the Oline, He picked Crowder in the third round that had first round talent ( why didnt we wait till the fourth like we did with Will Poole ), He drafted a running back yet our team was bloated with talent at RB plus Ricky is returning, and Saban got robbed in the Surtain Trade!

OK firing Saban was just a joke but if the dolphins flop this year how bad was RS really? What happens if Feeley performs quite well? What happens if Gordon becomes a premier back or even a decent back. What happens if Will Poole anchors our CB spot as a top corner for the next 5 years. What happens if Carrey turns out to be a great Olineman.

Yes I know there are alot of what ifs but Saban has nothing to show for himself either. Saban is the perfect example of what if right now! All of Sabans moves are what ifs right now! What if Brown gets hurt in preseason and sits out the year, what if bringing back Ricky destroys the teams morale, What if all of our FA signings get hurt or just plain dont perform well! Will we see fire Saban threads next year?

I know many people hated Wanny. I think that the fact Speilman was around Wanny is enough for most fans to want him gone. Personally I will wait a few years before calling the guy an idiot or moron. I will wait a few years before I praise Saban too!

As for the pickups Spielman made I will give them 2 to 3 years to prove themselves. Same goes for Sabans draft and FA pickups and trades!

P.S. I heard a person say trading Ogun for a third and Booker was a reason RS should be fired! Totally moronic. We got less, a lot less for Surtain.

I only have one thing to say 2 u, Go **** yourself, you are wasting yours and every1s time.

 

[Predaphin]

Damn, we already have a "fire Saban" thread??? who would've knew?? Let's at least see what he brings to the season before we before we judge him.

 

[DuderinoN703]

waaah waaah waaaah. :sleep:

 

[Awsi Dooger]

LOL!

The guy is trying to demonstrate how all the hindsight and second guessing could end up being applied to Saban if the same approach is taken to these moves everyone is now applauding (as they did with Spielman when those moves were made). He's right. You guys have such awful memory. Are you going to be screaming for Saban's head if he has the run of sheer bad luck that Spielman ran into? Yes, you probably will.

Not close. Saban has been acquiring former 1st round talents without sacrificing future draft picks or sabotaging the salary cap. No one with multiple functioning brain cells criticized Spielman when he made value decisions like David Boston or Will Poole. Similarly, no one who doesn't wear fanatical blinders and rubber stamp every move was commending Spielman when he magnificently botched the Feeley, Carey (4th), Gordon and yes, even the Ogunleye situations. Bad luck will follow you around like an unpaid debt if you consistently ignore equal value and try to pretend everyone else's reject is your salvation. Try going to the race track and wagering on every horse at 3/1 or less in a large field who is coming off an injury and hasn't raced in 6 months or more. You'll be remarkably unlucky.

 

[Marino1983]

I am going on the defense for some people and players who I should not have to defend. Yet many fans should not attack these people or players either.

Rick Spielman. I have heard so often "he sucks" yet there is no proof he has made a single bad move. Do you all believe AJ sucks so bad, Carrey will never play in the NFL, Will Poole was a bad draft pick in the fourth round, Gordon wasnt worth a 3rd, and we got robbed in the Ogun trade?

I got news for you all if you believe that. Our new god Saban has done many similar things. What has Saban done?

He brought in Gus Frerotte a has been or never was, He brought in a never was for the Oline, He picked Crowder in the third round that had first round talent ( why didnt we wait till the fourth like we did with Will Poole ), He drafted a running back yet our team was bloated with talent at RB plus Ricky is returning, and Saban got robbed in the Surtain Trade!

OK firing Saban was just a joke but if the dolphins flop this year how bad was RS really? What happens if Feeley performs quite well? What happens if Gordon becomes a premier back or even a decent back. What happens if Will Poole anchors our CB spot as a top corner for the next 5 years. What happens if Carrey turns out to be a great Olineman.

Yes I know there are alot of what ifs but Saban has nothing to show for himself either. Saban is the perfect example of what if right now! All of Sabans moves are what ifs right now! What if Brown gets hurt in preseason and sits out the year, what if bringing back Ricky destroys the teams morale, What if all of our FA signings get hurt or just plain dont perform well! Will we see fire Saban threads next year?

I know many people hated Wanny. I think that the fact Speilman was around Wanny is enough for most fans to want him gone. Personally I will wait a few years before calling the guy an idiot or moron. I will wait a few years before I praise Saban too!

As for the pickups Spielman made I will give them 2 to 3 years to prove themselves. Same goes for Sabans draft and FA pickups and trades!

P.S. I heard a person say trading Ogun for a third and Booker was a reason RS should be fired! Totally moronic. We got less, a lot less for Surtain.

Marino1983

 

[Marino1983]

Good post. Needed saying

:confused:
I didn't hear a single word!!

Marino1983

 

[Agua]

Not close. Saban has been acquiring former 1st round talents without sacrificing future draft picks or sabotaging the salary cap. No one with multiple functioning brain cells criticized Spielman when he made value decisions like David Boston or Will Poole.

But now they are - maybe not Poole - yet. The Boston move has been roundly trounced in these parts, that is, until he was resigned again. BTW, Spielman did an excellent job of keeping us in good salary cap shape.

Similarly, no one who doesn't wear fanatical blinders and rubber stamp every move was commending Spielman when he magnificently botched the Feeley, Carey (4th), Gordon and yes, even the Ogunleye situations.

Wrong again on every point. I was one of the FEW who, in the very minutes before the Carey pick, recognized Wolfork as the value on the board, while EVERYONE was demanding Carey. Maybe you weren't, but you were in the vast majority.

Feeley - Hindsight again. Thanks for proving my point. EVERYONE knew Fiedler couldn't cut it, and we had, HAD to make a go to get a QB. Now, who were the ones available? Brunell? Warner? Henson? They were commanding HUGE salaries and in no way can be said to have performed any better than Feeley. The jury is still out on the guy, btw.

Gordon - and this applies to everything - Wayne had given a WIN NOW Mandate. That is the situation he was in. Those are the expectations that were to be met. Gordon is not some Travis Minor guy - he's not RopeWeed, but he's not some scrub that coughing up a 3rd rounder for, under those circumstances, was an awful reach.

Ogun - this has been argued over and over, and I'm not going to go into it again.

The thing you're conveniently, perhaps disingenuously, overlooking here, and everyone else as well, is Spielman was placed in a "get results now" situation. It didn't work that way, but now you're criticising the guy by measuring him against a different goal than the one he was directed to aim for when all this was going down.

Bad luck will follow you around like an unpaid debt if you consistently ignore equal value and try to pretend everyone else's reject is your salvation. Try going to the race track and wagering on every horse at 3/1 or less in a large field who is coming off an injury and hasn't raced in 6 months or more. You'll be remarkably unlucky.

Very, very good point. Too bad it doesn't have anything to do with this situation.

 

[Ozzy]

Actually, I remember reading on this board about those teams wanting to trade with us earlier, but none of them were willing to trade picks in that year's draft. They were only willing to trade future picks.

The thing is, that no reports came out that prove his theory that any deals were better deals. I have no doubt that other teams were involved at some point.

 

[Dolphin North]

I am going on the defense for some people and players who I should not have to defend. Yet many fans should not attack these people or players either.

Rick Spielman. I have heard so often "he sucks" yet there is no proof he has made a single bad move. Do you all believe AJ sucks so bad, Carrey will never play in the NFL, Will Poole was a bad draft pick in the fourth round, Gordon wasnt worth a 3rd, and we got robbed in the Ogun trade?

I got news for you all if you believe that. Our new god Saban has done many similar things. What has Saban done?

He brought in Gus Frerotte a has been or never was, He brought in a never was for the Oline, He picked Crowder in the third round that had first round talent ( why didnt we wait till the fourth like we did with Will Poole ), He drafted a running back yet our team was bloated with talent at RB plus Ricky is returning, and Saban got robbed in the Surtain Trade!

OK firing Saban was just a joke but if the dolphins flop this year how bad was RS really? What happens if Feeley performs quite well? What happens if Gordon becomes a premier back or even a decent back. What happens if Will Poole anchors our CB spot as a top corner for the next 5 years. What happens if Carrey turns out to be a great Olineman.

Yes I know there are alot of what ifs but Saban has nothing to show for himself either. Saban is the perfect example of what if right now! All of Sabans moves are what ifs right now! What if Brown gets hurt in preseason and sits out the year, what if bringing back Ricky destroys the teams morale, What if all of our FA signings get hurt or just plain dont perform well! Will we see fire Saban threads next year?

I know many people hated Wanny. I think that the fact Speilman was around Wanny is enough for most fans to want him gone. Personally I will wait a few years before calling the guy an idiot or moron. I will wait a few years before I praise Saban too!

As for the pickups Spielman made I will give them 2 to 3 years to prove themselves. Same goes for Sabans draft and FA pickups and trades!

P.S. I heard a person say trading Ogun for a third and Booker was a reason RS should be fired! Totally moronic. We got less, a lot less for Surtain.

Booker's not too bad for Ogun as it turns out he's not as good when not benefitting from JT on the other side. I say we have to wait and see about A.J. too.
Other than that ... are you feeling alright? Check your temperature. We are going to see an organization being run correctly now, I'm sure. It cannot be more dishevelled than what Wanny and Spielman were running.