Ginn Trade: Addition by Subtraction at KR

[GoonBoss]

OMG children we are all Dolphins fans here (well most of us anyhow).
Can't we all just get along? lol
This thread gave me a serious headache!!

Couple last points about Ginn. (Yes I wanted him to succeed here being an acquaintance and Buckeye).
His 2 TD returns against the Jets broke an NFL record. These were not a fluke, they were great returns.
I believe he also was the only player to torch Revis for a TD bomb last season.
He did have some good moments here (as well as some very bad).
Fact is, he was a HUGE part of our 2 Jets victories, which should count for something.
Sweeping the jets was our BIG moment of last season and he played a very key role in both victories.
That has to count for something as the Jets are now our most bitter rival.
I don't understand the constant negativity towards Ted Ginn especially since he is gone.
We have made FAR WORSE 1st round draft choices.
Our drafting in general has been horrendous until the trifecta took over.
Why does nobody hate and constantly bash Jason Allen?
He was a 1st round bust and all he can do is play special teams.
The list of our 1st pick turds could go on and on...
2007-Ted Ginn (it could have been worse, Brady Quinn was our projected pick)
2006-Jason Allen
2003-(2nd round)-Eddie Moore
2002-(3rd Round)-Seth McKinney
2001-Jamar Fletcher
1999-(2nd round)-JJ Johnson
1998-John Avery
1997-Yatil Green

His performance against the Jets counts as big parts of two wins. That's it.

Jason Allen gets killed on here regularly...When he's talked about at all. Funny thing is that the whole argument used for Ginn was also used for JA......Hey, it took Troy Palamalu three years to develop.......Well, we now know that whole argument is complete bunk. Jamar Fletcher, Eddie more, etc don't get killed here because they don't matter any more. Ginn is the latest in a long list of failed, departed #1 picks and will be taking flack in gradually lessening ammounts as his time away from the team grows. When you are the face of a team's failure, you are going to get negativity towards you.

 

[GoonBoss]

Haha, I only stand up for him because I think it is weird to still be talking about him on here. It's even stranger that you go and read 49ers blogs about him and see what he's up to in niners camp haha. I stopped following him once he was on a different team, just like JT, Gerbil Wilson, and Joey Porter. It kind of reminds me of grade school kids, when one has a crush on the other they always insult them, sometimes even by saying "So-and-so sucks" (sounds like someone on here).

Why do you find it weird? He's the most recent departure, and failure from the team. Think if it like ex girlfreinds; The one you broke up with two weeks ago is still going to be on your mind, for better or worse, far more than the one you broke up with last year.

Make sense now?

 

[dolpns13]

Am I the only one that remembers the numerous Ginn kick returns for touchdowns that got called back?? If he's so bad where do all our other kick returners in past years rank?? I don't recall ANYONE in the 20+ years I've been a fan having so many big returns. (regardless of whether they counted or not) Unfortunately it's all or nothing with this guy. He either has a great return or a terrible return. There were both good and bad things about Ginn. Terrible wide receiver. Game-breaking kick return speed. Many bad returns and many good returns. Some of you choose to only remember the poor ones for some reason. Some guys just can't win. So many negative people on here. It's amazing you can make it through a day without shooting yourselves.

Anyway the guy is gone so move the hell on already.

Yeah, two years ago...

Your right, he isnt a TERRIBLE or GREAT KR'r, he is an average one at best and we can get an average KR'r for much cheaper than what we were paying Ginn.

 

[Butterfrog 2.0]

Not saying that Miami was the best ST blocking in the NFL, but they are not as bad as you make them out to be.

Here are Ginn's two TD's against NY broken down...

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-films...-Anatomy-Ginn-s-Back-to-Back-100-yard-Returns

EXCELLENT blocking by the ST. Maintaining their blocks is what allowed Ginn to score on the 1st return. On the second return it is pointed out that it is Ginn that doesn't wait for his blocks. He outruns them which ends up making the blocking look bad.

Ok, first of all it's easy to point out the couple of good jobs that a team or unit does at something when they suck at it most of the time but as far as the plays..... On the first one they point out how the Jets guy starts running backwards and away from the play taking away 2 of his own men, this probably caused the TD, the blocking wasn't bad on this play but it wasn't great or anything, oh and if the returner didn't have Blazing speed on that play no way is it a TD. On the second play whether he outran his blocks or not there were 7 Jet defenders that weren't blocked at all before Ginn broke it to the outside, now once he broke it though there were two very nice blocks that allowed him to spring it forr the TD. My point though is overall the KR blocking was very very bad, and IDC about Ginn now but it needs to be improved for this season.

 

[dolpns13]

All the Ginn bashing is crazy. We got way more out of him then we ever would have out of Brady Quinn. I was glad at the time and still am we didn't take that stiff

we shouldnt have chosen him either. There were plenty of players on the baord we could have had instead of either of these "athletes".

Willis, Revis, Griffin, Staley.. man.. there were a TON of players who are leaps and bounds better than both of those guys that we could have had and would have been producing today. Could you imagine if we drafted Revis instead of Ginn? Damnit Camoron

 

[dolpns13]

Haha, I only stand up for him because I think it is weird to still be talking about him on here. It's even stranger that you go and read 49ers blogs about him and see what he's up to in niners camp haha. I stopped following him once he was on a different team, just like JT, Gerbil Wilson, and Joey Porter. It kind of reminds me of grade school kids, when one has a crush on the other they always insult them, sometimes even by saying "So-and-so sucks" (sounds like someone on here).

So why do you start threads about players who are worse than Ginn wanted them to come to Miami? If you dont care about players on different teams that is..

 

[footsteps_falco]

could say a lot about Ginn but i would like to be able to talk about kory sheets. i would love to see him kick returning...even punt returning. Ginn just didnt have hands. saw him fumble and fobble and drop too many balls, a lot on PR's and some KR's.

 

[ChambersWI]

I think we can all agree that Ginn had the potential to be an explosive return man, BUT ley me ask you this. If Ginn was such a good return man, why were Patrick Cobbs and Devon Bess (neither of whom are good return men) the KR and PR for the better part of the last 2 years? Why was UDFA Chris Williams given every oppurtunity to win the return job last year through TC and the first 2 preseason games (he was cut following a fumble frenzy in the second game)? Ginn may have the potential big play ability, but he's not a consistent return man, nor is he shifty. Josh Cribbs is a highlight real because he's shifty, but he's considered elite because he's consistent. Teddy has straight line speed.

 

[unclemonty]

I think we can all agree that Ginn had the potential to be an explosive return man, BUT ley me ask you this. If Ginn was such a good return man, why were Patrick Cobbs and Devon Bess (neither of whom are good return men) the KR and PR for the better part of the last 2 years? Why was UDFA Chris Williams given every oppurtunity to win the return job last year through TC and the first 2 preseason games (he was cut following a fumble frenzy in the second game)?

Because Ginn was forced into a #1 WR role. How many #1 WRs also return kicks and punts?

ZERO!!!

 

[unclemonty]

His performance against the Jets counts as big parts of two wins. That's it.

Jason Allen gets killed on here regularly...When he's talked about at all. Funny thing is that the whole argument used for Ginn was also used for JA......Hey, it took Troy Palamalu three years to develop.......Well, we now know that whole argument is complete bunk. Jamar Fletcher, Eddie more, etc don't get killed here because they don't matter any more. Ginn is the latest in a long list of failed, departed #1 picks and will be taking flack in gradually lessening ammounts as his time away from the team grows. When you are the face of a team's failure, you are going to get negativity towards you.

I stand by my earlier post about the financials involved.
If we had a salary cap, Ted Ginn would still be a Miami Dolphin.
Because there is no salary cap, he is gone to clear his numbers off the books.
It is a little different when you are an acquaintance to someone.
It becomes alot harder to see all the negative bashing.
Everyone on this board is sure "UBER-HAPPY" to boast about our sweeping of the Jets.
Without Ted Ginn last season we probably would have been swept by the Jets...
While he is blamed for losses (Indi, NO), he is never given credit for the one thing everyone on this board holds sacred:

OUR SWEEPING OF THE JETS!

 

[ChambersWI]

Because Ginn was forced into a #1 WR role. How many #1 WRs also return kicks and punts?

ZERO!!!

Steve Smith did for a long time, Santana Moss returned kicks with the Jets I believe, Desean Jackson does, Tim Brown did with the Raiders,Antwan Randle El may not have been the go-to guy but he was a starter for the Steelers when they won the Super Bowl same with the Redskins, Holmes returned punts with the Steelers, Nate Burleson was a starting WR for the Seahawks and also returned kicks, Dennis Northcutt has been a starter for 3 different teams and returned kicks for each team.

Thanks for playing come again.

 

[GoonBoss]

I stand by my earlier post about the financials involved.
If we had a salary cap, Ted Ginn would still be a Miami Dolphin.
Because there is no salary cap, he is gone to clear his numbers off the books.
It is a little different when you are an acquaintance to someone.
It becomes alot harder to see all the negative bashing.
Everyone on this board is sure "UBER-HAPPY" to boast about our sweeping of the Jets.
Without Ted Ginn last season we probably would have been swept by the Jets...
While he is blamed for losses (Indi, NO), he is never given credit for the one thing everyone on this board holds sacred:

OUR SWEEPING OF THE JETS!

I understand, seeing as how you are emotionally invested in Ginn (Aquaintence) you are unable to form a full opinion. I'd have a hard time being fully critical of a friend or relation too....But you asked why, or didn't understand the bashing Ginn gets. I simply told you why he gets it. He also had some huge drops in critical moments of games last year. You say he's never given credit for the Jets games, and that's simply not accurate...It's just that two great games in three years does not wash away a career of underperforming and mediocrity at best.

Oh, and financials still play a role. Most teams have a self imposed cap, because there will be a cap season after next. Ginns salary numbers had nothing to do with him getting cut. Gibril Wilsons? Probably. Ginns? No. Ginn was actually a bargain.

 

[unclemonty]

Steve Smith did for a long time, Santana Moss returned kicks with the Jets I believe, Desean Jackson does, Tim Brown did with the Raiders,Antwan Randle El may not have been the go-to guy but he was a starter for the Steelers when they won the Super Bowl same with the Redskins, Holmes returned punts with the Steelers, Nate Burleson was a starting WR for the Seahawks and also returned kicks, Dennis Northcutt has been a starter for 3 different teams and returned kicks for each team.

Thanks for playing come again.

I said "How many #1 WRs also return kicks and punts?" being a "starter" has nothing to do with what was stated.
Most guys on the list are #2 or #3 and again I said return punts AND kicks.

Steve Smith-no longer returns since becoming #1, hasn't for along time, 2009 0 returns
Holmes #2, punts only occasional, 2009 2 returns
RandleEl #2-4, utility
Northcutt-#4 pretty much a returner, not even close to #1 for any team ever
Nate Burleson-#2, irrelevant
Tim Brown- way back, in his last 8 seasons (pretty much when he became the #1 WR) he only had a WHOPPING 25 punt returns total in 8 seasons,
16 of these returns in his final 3 seasons when he was no longer #1 WR on the team

you came pretty close with Desean Jackson-#1 punts only (29), if he returned kicks you would have a winner

Thank you for playing come again.

 

[unclemonty]

Most teams have a self imposed cap, because there will be a cap season after next. Ginns salary numbers had nothing to do with him getting cut. Gibril Wilsons? Probably. Ginns? No. Ginn was actually a bargain.

I am sorry but I respectfully 100% disagree.
Do you think we would have traded him and eaten a $5.91 million cap hit this season?
We couldn't have with our signings and other cuts.
While his salary of $1 million is affordable ($3 million cap#) this season.
Next year when the cap is back, here is what happens:
2011 his salary (still low $1.4 million) comes with a cap hit of $3.4 million.
2012 his salary (still reasonable $1.8 million) becomes a cap hit of $3.8 million.
In SF his cap hit will only be $1.4 million in 2011 and $1.8 million in 2012 which fits what he brings to the table.
His cap numbers in 2011 and 2012 are too high for a returner and deep threat.
We moved him because it was an uncapped season and there were no penalties.
In a capped season, he would still be here another season or two.

 

[GoonBoss]

I am sorry but I respectfully 100% disagree.
Financials had ALOT to do with it.
Do you think we would have traded him and eaten a $5.91 million cap hit this season?
We couldn't have with our signings and other cuts.
While his salary of $1 million is affordable ($3 million cap#) this season.
Next year when the cap is back, here is what happens:
2011 his salary (still low $1.4 million) comes with a cap hit of $3.4 million.
2012 his salary (still reasonable $1.8 million) becomes a cap hit of $3.8 million.
In SF his cap hit will only be $1.4 million in 2011 and $1.8 million in 2012 which fits what he brings to the table.
His cap numbers in 2011 and 2012 are too high for a returner and deep threat.
We moved him because it was an uncapped season and there were no penalties.
In a capped season, he would still be here another season or two.

Where are you getting your cap numbers from?