Good News-Bad News (Dion Jordan vs. Jon Martin)

[Abhenne7]

I doubt martin will be any good. I posted these same stats in a chart last year and people just laughed it away. Idc if he's put on 15 pounds of muscle. Hes still a soft scrub. Good linebackers will eat him alive

 

[beast_mode]

For me, despite these negative signs, I can't believe that Philbin and Co. would be OK with someone as bad as you make Martin sound, taking the field at such an important position. With no backup plan at all? In a year that is so important to so many people in that front office.

It's not as if the Dolphins did not try to sign Jake Long and Brandon Albert. In fact, there were reports Miami offered more than St. Louis but Jake chose them anyway for whatever reason. Jonathan Martin is plan C.

 

[finfanaz]

It's not as if the Dolphins did not try to sign Jake Long and Brandon Albert. In fact, there were reports Miami offered more than St. Louis but Jake chose them anyway for whatever reason. Jonathan Martin is plan C.

There's no reason for me to believe that report unless it had some quotes in it, from people who know. Hard for me to believe that Long would move his family for less money. If they thought Martin was going to be the worst LT in the league they wouldve thrown the money truck at Long and he would be a Fin.

And now that were looking at the draft in the rear view, how much of that Albert stuff was bull**** cause Ireland wanted people to think we would take a top LT after "missing out" on Albert?

 

[where's th'fish]

EXCEPT...one of these has happened, and the other has not.

Sure, but it's the curse of practicing against your own team. Every play someone fails and someone succeeds. We'd need to be right there watching practice to know if a certain player is really making it too easy for the rest or if it's great play by a another player or two making him look bad. Now, Jordan is supposed to be a passrush specialist at this point and I heard a lot of positive feelings about Vernon coming from knowledgeable people outside the Dolphin fan community this offseason, so I'd wait till we at least see Martin in a preseason game before jumping to conclusions.

I guess the point is, if we'd already jumped to conclusions even before this, then it seems to confirm that, but it's all nothing but conclusion-jumping backed by more conclusion-jumping. Even after the first preseason game we'll only have but a little to draw conclusions from.

An even further point is that we don't have the slightest control over what the Dolphins do, so what's the point of suffering in advance of an expected outcome, especially when it's drawn from such vague evidence.

 

[beast_mode]

And, while it is early, whose to say this kid won't be a phenom pass rusher who will give most of the left tackles fits?

I don't put much stock into how he did @ the scrimmage with Jordan. A scrimmage is not a game no matter how much you try to make the simulation real. I say he will struggle based on his problems handling fast, agile DEs in live games last year and in college. His added strength will certainly help him hold his ground better and working on technique will help him be in the right place and in position. But you can't really teach agility.

 

[nick1]

why should we be excited about Jordan beating the worst Lt in the league in practice? I don't think martin is as bad as some of you think he is. but playing the devils advocate if Martin is really that bad. why get excited about Jordan or even vernon beating him in practice

 

[So Be]

What is everyone's opinion on the effect of no pads and limited contact (most practices) on the camp battle in the trenches? Does it matter a lot, a little? Does it matter more on the run or pass? Who has the advantage, O or D in each case?

 

[rrrrphin]

encouraged by Dion - yes
worried about Martin - yes

I'll really start to worry about Martin when the coaching staff starts experimenting with Thomas and Yeatman at LT on first team reps. I think we'll see our evidence first hand starting Sunday evening.

 

[So Be]

Sure, but it's the curse of practicing against your own team. Every play someone fails and someone succeeds. We'd need to be right there watching practice to know if a certain player is really making it too easy for the rest or if it's great play by a another player or two making him look bad. Now, Jordan is supposed to be a passrush specialist at this point and I heard a lot of positive feelings about Vernon coming from knowledgeable people outside the Dolphin fan community this offseason, so I'd wait till we at least see Martin in a preseason game before jumping to conclusions.

I guess the point is, if we'd already jumped to conclusions even before this, then it seems to confirm that, but it's all nothing but conclusion-jumping backed by more conclusion-jumping. Even after the first preseason game we'll only have but a little to draw conclusions from.

An even further point is that we don't have the slightest control over what the Dolphins do, so what's the point of suffering in advance of an expected outcome, especially when it's drawn from such vague evidence.

I got to know a few former Canes players a bit. They said that Vernon and Miller really worked their tails off in the off season, and expected big improvements from both this year. FWIW.

It "appears" that Jordan putting on 15 pounds has not hurt his speed or quickness. Martin did the same and is stronger, which I have to think makes him better than last year. Jerry also came into camp in much better shape.

How much any of the above will translate to play on the field is anyone's guess. However, you have to like the work done, and have to think it will make each player better than last year. We will see how much in games.

 

[ckparrothead]

Yeah, he was bad last year. Even more of a reason for me to believe that they wouldn't be sticking with Martin at LT if he wasn't making improvements.



Yeah for sure, can't argue that. That dude was in a Dolphins uniform for way to long.

Well, I hope they aren't making the same mistake with Martin. I remain optimistic...

Silver lining if Martin turns out to be a terrible LT this year is that we have a QB that completes a high % under pressure. :)

Not to belabor the point but, he wasn't just in an NFL uniform too long. He was a STARTER. They headed into the season thinking he, Davone Bess and Brian Hartline were their three guys.

 

[ckparrothead]

Sure, but it's the curse of practicing against your own team. Every play someone fails and someone succeeds. We'd need to be right there watching practice to know if a certain player is really making it too easy for the rest or if it's great play by a another player or two making him look bad. Now, Jordan is supposed to be a passrush specialist at this point and I heard a lot of positive feelings about Vernon coming from knowledgeable people outside the Dolphin fan community this offseason, so I'd wait till we at least see Martin in a preseason game before jumping to conclusions.

But let's have a little perspective. Last year Olivier Vernon was statistically a lower tier pass rusher, in terms of how often he got pressures per snap. He got plenty of opportunities. Remember, they used him almost like a pass rush specialist, coming in on prime pass rushing downs. So he wasn't disadvantaged by having to play a lot on like 1st & 10 when the QB could be going 3 step drop and dump, and the pass rush has no chance of getting much pressure. I believe the exact ranking was #73 out of 99. So he was lower tier. Jon Martin was not just lower tier, but literally one of the very worst in the league in pass pro. Again, another statistic that goes by pressures versus snaps and such, Martin was #94 out of 115. So he was bad, and worse than Olivier Vernon.

We get to camp this year, and Olivier Vernon is beating him. All reports agree. Vernon had an outstanding week of practice against Jonathan Martin. THEN...a rookie #3 overall pick Dion Jordan comes in, and he's beating Martin like a drum. He's beating him much worse (on a per rep basis) than Vernon was.

I mean, what does that sound like, to you? Don't play devil's advocate. Don't try and squeeze between the rain drops trying not to get wet. Don't tell me about what is possible. Tell me what it sounds like to you.

 

[biggiesmalls3k1]

Sounds like we shouldve given up that 3rd rounder for Albert...how is it that we've spent all this money and resources on the Line and we have put ZERO emphasis on protecting the blindside of our potential franchise qb...it is baffling, the way Jonathan Martin played last year was borderline Columbo-ish and we just exasperated that feeling by moving him to a more pivotal position on the line...good job Irish...

 

[Geforce]

Sounds like we shouldve given up that 3rd rounder for Albert...how is it that we've spent all this money and resources on the Line and we have put ZERO emphasis on protecting the blindside of our potential franchise qb...it is baffling, the way Jonathan Martin played last year was borderline Columbo-ish and we just exasperated that feeling by moving him to a more pivotal position on the line...good job Irish...

Kansas City didn't want our 3rd rounder. Reports were they initiatively wanted both 2nd rounders and then our first 2nd rounder.

To say they put ZERO emphasis on protecting Tannehill's blindside is inaccurate.

 

[truedolfan57]

pretty sure KC wanted a 2nd. I think Miami would have given up a 3rd.

 

[So Be]

Just curious CK, how much do you take from camp stats? NOT just talkin Martin or Jordan but, everyone.