HEY, GMs...Is Wale worth 2 - 2nds? | Page 3 | FinHeaven - Miami Dolphins Forums

HEY, GMs...Is Wale worth 2 - 2nds?

I would rather keep OGUN, however it is a reality situation. If he wants too much money, Miami can't afford to keep OGUN. No one thinks this guy is a bum, they just think he is replaceable.

Plus if OGUN really was as good as people here like to think, there would be a few teams willing to give their first round pick for him. Best I heard so far, was the Bears who wanted to give up a 2nd.
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Echo my thoughts precisely. I like him I think he's an 7 or 8 sack guy on most other teams and he plays the run pretty well so he's a good DE. But he's not worth the money doled out to Grant Wistrom and Jevon Kearse and thats what he wants (at the very least). This is why I've been lookin in the draft I believe we can get a 5 to 7 sack guy in the draft that ends up with double digit sacks sometime in his first couple years...or at worst we get another healthy rotation and get that steady 21 to 22 sacks coming from the other side of JT.

I dont like how everyone acts like we've got him in our pocket and therefore they say "how could you give up the conference sack leader for ______"

We don't have him in our pocket. We have him for one more year. One more year at $2 million. Then, we franchise him, he gets paid by us, or leaves. We have room this year so its not like we'll somehow be able to afford him next year as opposed to this year, and franchising him would be out of the question because of the $7+ million cap figure he'd have.

So you have to balance what its worth to have Adewale Ogunleye on our roster for 2004, vs what we end up getting for him in trade (a draft pick or two that is almost guaranteed to be on our roster for 4 years at a bargain rate).

If you could have Ogunleye for JUST the 2004 season then he leaves, or you could have 2 second round draft picks...which would you take?

BTW NathanHunt my answer is I might do that but only because we could then go on to trade back from pick #3 and acquire possibly 2 first round picks and maybe more. There is nobody in the top 5 that I feel like would be great value for us to trade up to get him. Its one of those things where sure if you've already got the #3 pick fine, but if you're trading up to get a safety like Sean Taylor...well I love Taylor think he'll be dominant but he's still just a safety. The only other guy I feel is good value up there is Robert Gallery or maybe Big Ben. Supposedly Wade Smith is set to become a good LT, and though I firmly believe he can play RT, his best position would be LT. He could move to LG but Jeno James is already there. Grabbing Robert Gallery does not fulfill our RT needs for the future though it gives us a multitude of options for the present...and besides, #3 might not even be high enough to get Gallery. Count Dracula Davis could grab him he loves guys like Gallery.

As for the QBs I think Rivers is the best value QB on the board. The others might be taken a little higher than maybe they should. I'm not terribly impressed with them...plus we grabbed Feeley for better or worst and that 2nd rounder means he deserves a shot.
 
Ok, after reading all the post maybe we should just put ANY guy at LDE and he should get 15 sacks and play the run great cos JT's on the other side.Come to think of, I hope we can trade Ogun for a 5th round pick since I'm sure that Rick's such an idiot that he'll let him go for nothing in return. And of course we can take a DE in the 5th round and he should be in the probowl next year as a rookie cos JT will draw double teams on every sibgle play just like last year. He did get double all day long when we played Houston, didn't he?Oh wait, now that I remember, Pitts manhandled him one on one all day long so I guess it looked like he was being double...lol Ok, I'm being sarcastic of course and I love JT but maybe some of you guys are going way over board saying that Ogun was that good just cos JT was on the other side. Anyway, whatever Rick does I will suport him.

Ozzy rules!!
 
Ok, after reading all the post maybe we should just put ANY guy at LDE and he should get 15 sacks and play the run great cos JT's on the other side.Come to think of, I hope we can trade Ogun for a 5th round pick since I'm sure that Rick's such an idiot that he'll let him go for nothing in return. And of course we can take a DE in the 5th round and he should be in the probowl next year as a rookie cos JT will draw double teams on every sibgle play just like last year. He did get double all day long when we played Houston, didn't he?Oh wait, now that I remember, Pitts manhandled him one on one all day long so I guess it looked like he was being double...lol Ok, I'm being sarcastic of course and I love JT but maybe some of you guys are going way over board saying that Ogun was that good just cos JT was on the other side. Anyway, whatever Rick does I will suport him.
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A post like that makes you look more stupid than it does the rest of us. :rolleyes:

Letting Ogun go for nothing in 2005 isn't a matter of being smart, or being dumb. Its a matter who the hand you're dealt. Choices. We franchise him, sign him long term, or he leaves via free agency. Can we afford the franchise tender? NO. Have we shown the willingness to give into his contract demands in a year in which we actually have money? NO. Being a smart guy I'm sure Spielman will just whip the solution straight out of his butt, he'll handcuff Ogunleye to his locker.

BTW if you think Taylor was singled on Pitts all day you have a bad memory. The Texans were scared to DEATH of what JT would do on Chester Pitts and the slid protection out to him all day long.
 
Some are saying we can't afford Ogunleye, we don't have the money or he wants Wistrom and Kearse money. OK let’s look at the contracts for these two players.

Wistrom, Grant.
Wistrom signed a six-year, $33 million deal that includes a $14 million signing bonus. 14/6= $2.33 million per year of signing bonus pro-ration which has to be added to each year’s base salary.
Player Info............Draft Info
DE (#98) ..............Year: 1998
Seattle Seahawks....Round: 1
Chesterfield, MO........Position: 6
Salary History
2004 1,500,000.
2005 2,000,000.
2006 3,500,000.
2007 3,500,000.
2008 4,000,000.
2009 4,500,000.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=1751263

Kearse, Jevon.
Kearse and the Eagles agreed to a $66 million, eight-year contract on Wednesday, the first day of the NFL's free agency period. Kearse will receive a $16 million signing bonus and $4 million in a roster bonus that he'll get in the first two years of his deal. Rosenhaus said the deal makes Kearse the highest-paid defensive lineman in NFL history. 16/6= $2.67 million per year for 6 years plus 4/5= $800k more per year for 5 years starting in 2005.
Player Info....................Draft Info
DE (#90) ......................Year: 1999
Philadelphia Eagles ......Round: 1
Brentwood, TN..............Position: 16
Salary History
2004 535,000.
2005 890,000.
2006 2,075,000.
2007 5,200,000.
2008 6,460,000.
2009 7,720,000.
2010 8,980,000.
2011 10,240,000.

The total of the $16 million signing bonus, $4 million roster bonus and base salaries total $62.1 so there is $3.9 million more in miscellaneous payments due during the life of the contract.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=1750868

Even Kearse's deal is affordable for the first three years, a deal that was negotiated in the frenzy of free agency when players are overpaid to assure they are secured. To be fair to Kearse “he had 36 sacks and went to the Pro Bowl in his first three seasons, twice earning All-Pro honors. But he had just 11½ sacks in the past two injury-plagued seasons.†Quoted from the ESPN article.

Ogunleye has had two good years and deserves a six year contract in the $25 to $30 million range including around a $6 to $10 million signing bonus in the total deal. He is already counting $1.824 million toward the salary cap now. A $10 million signing bonus and a $455k minimum salary for 2004 will increase his cap charge about $300k this year. If Ogunleye truly wants big money a two or three-year deal could be struck now and a $60 million or more deal would come with two more years of 10 or more sacks a year. If he can’t wait this long then he will come to the conclusion that a one year tender and breakout year will get him that $60 million contract from some team next year. IMO he wants security and will sign a long-term deal with the Dolphins.

It is also my opinion that some are making too much of what Rosenhause has said about Ogunleye not wanting to sign a one year tender. No he doesn’t want to sign a one-year tender and wouldn’t you too be frustrated with so much money being thrown around and your team hasn’t even started negotiating with your agent??? Having your agent say it makes him the bad guy and gets your message of frustration to the public and team.
 
I completely agree with Danny's take here.

Ogun would've been a sure first round pick if not for his injury. He is not a marginal player who will do just OK on another team. Talent-wise he's neck for neck if not better than JT. JT's a better edge rusher than OGUN but OGUN is the better run stopper and his double moves and bullrush are excellent plus he's getting nicked by the tight end. It seems as if some of us have forgotten that JT was a third rounder who was very inconsistent his first couple of years in the league (does anyone remember 1999 when he had 2.5 sacks?) who worked hard and developed into a perrenial Pro-Bowl player (and we gave him a huge contract before he deserved it). Remember we franchised JT and his contract situation was a big squabble. Here's JT's stats:
http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/4370[/URL]


Mixon, Bromell, and Armstrong are not complete DE's like Ogun. Bromell gained all his sacks rushing from the DT spot, Mixon couldn't sack a QB by accident and Armstrong was used as a third down player in 00 because of his age. Very few DE's can edge rush like Armstrong could in 00. Remember, he's a first rounder who had six good years with the Bears before coming to the Dolphins in that dreadful year of 95. The Raiders infatuation with veterans led them to sign him to an awful contract at the age of 36. His production dropped because of injury and age, not because of a lack of JT opposite him. Here's a link to his stats:
http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/3042[/URL]

We can afford to keep Ogun and Chambers. Ogun deserves big money and his first couple of years will probably be in the 3-4 million range. Seau is one year away from being gone and who knows who'll be gone by next year. Chambers will be a discount if we sign him up now. A restructure of Surtain's contract alone could provide for ample room under the cap. The cap will thin out as more rookies join the team and older unproductive vets leave. Since most of these vets aren't tied to big signing bonuses, we can release them with minimal effect to the cap. This is a perfect example of the Dolphins sound strategy of signing their own to big-money contracts. When a player is young, proven, talented, and productive it makes the most sense to sign him to big money. You can't spend it any better than that.
 
Originally posted by dolphinj
I completely agree with Danny's take here.

Ogun would've been a sure first round pick if not for his injury. He is not a marginal player who will do just OK on another team. Talent-wise he's neck for neck if not better than JT. JT's a better edge rusher than OGUN but OGUN is the better run stopper and his double moves and bullrush are excellent plus he's getting nicked by the tight end. It seems as if some of us have forgotten that JT was a third rounder who was very inconsistent his first
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That is not true. JT is a much better run stopper. JT is one of the best run stopping defensive ends in the league. That is what makes him so dangerous. You look at his size and you think he would just be good speed rusher, however he is the real deal.

I am not saying that OGUN isn't a good player, however to say that he is better then JT, is crazy, at this point in time.
 
Isn't Rosenhaus demanding a $15 Million bonus for Wale? I don't he is worth that much at this point to ANY GM including Rick. The contract described by Merman above is where I think it should be and if Drew were willing to take that, I think Wale would be signed today.
 
Ogunleye has had two good years and deserves a six year contract in the $25 to $30 million range including around a $6 to $10 million signing bonus in the total deal
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Unfortunately if you were negotiating with Drew Rosenhaus right now, he would be scoffing in your face.

I think we would give him a deal with an $6-8 million signing bonus. I know I would.

What JT is, is he's a high energy player that plays like he's made of liquid metal. Tackles aren't able to keep hold of him period and that means he makes a lot of plays in both the run and passing game. JT is the real deal. If he were 26 years old and had a 1st and 3rd RFA tag on him, teams would snap him up in MOMENTS. Teams aren't convinced about Ogunleye, for good reason.

BTW, I like how everyone says that Ogun was a "sure-fire" first round pick before he blew his knee. He was not a sure thing. Lots of guys are "possible" first rounders when they are early in their college careers. We all read the same articles, just because it said that had he not blown his knee he was considered a "possible" first round grade guy, does not mean he was a "sure fire" first round guy.
 
Originally posted by DOLFANMIKE


How are we going to sign our draft picks, and give OGUN the money he wants? I don't think we can offer him anywhere close to what he's asking. I hope we can, but I don't see it. If we had an opportunity to pick up two early 2nd rounders for him, I'd like to see us move on it.

I suppose our best hope is the scenerio with restructures that Wanny mentioned, but OGUN isnt asking for easy money. He wants to be paid. He's coming off 2 very good seasons and a Pro Bowl.

We are screwed if we don't sign OGUN and he sits until the last 6 weeks.
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We may be screwed, but not nearly as much as Ogun. If he sits til the last six weeks, he makes very little money this year and substantially lowers what he can ask for next year. Especially if we do successfully replace him. His market value goes down probably below what Miami will offer him this year. That's why he won't do it. It hurts his value. Is there a risk for Miami? Yes, but there is a much, much higher risk for Ogun.
 
BTW Taylor was raw is why he was inconsistent. We have a good DL coach now, Clarence Brooks. We've had him since after 1999. Back then Cary Godette was our DL coach and basically all he did was sit back and let Trace Armstrong coach our DLmen.

"C'mere Jason...I'm gonna show ya my favorite, the bullrush..."

Yeah, I bet that worked wonders for the undersized Taylor in 1999 :rolleyes:
 
Folks, Merman hit the nail on the head. Exellent post. If we want to sign Ogun to a long term, deal, we clearly have the cap room this year to do so. Remember, his cap number for this year right now is already $1.8 mil.

I think its merely a question of wanting to see what his vaslue is in the market before committing to him lobg term. Money is not the issue here.
 
If it were all about cap room this year, Ogunleye would be signed. Thankfully, when GMs evaluate a cap situation, they don't make a fan/madden mistake and create only a 1 year matrix.
 
Originally posted by ckparrothead


A post like that makes you look more stupid than it does the rest of us. :rolleyes:

Letting Ogun go for nothing in 2005 isn't a matter of being smart, or being dumb. Its a matter who the hand you're dealt. Choices. We franchise him, sign him long term, or he leaves via free agency. Can we afford the franchise tender? NO. Have we shown the willingness to give into his contract demands in a year in which we actually have money? NO. Being a smart guy I'm sure Spielman will just whip the solution straight out of his butt, he'll handcuff Ogunleye to his locker.

BTW if you think Taylor was singled on Pitts all day you have a bad memory. The Texans were scared to DEATH of what JT would do on Chester Pitts and the slid protection out to him all day long.
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And what are Ogun's choices?

He signs a long term deal with Miami with an 8 to 10 mil signing bonus.

or

He holds out this season. Hopes we don't franchise him next season (which we might be able to afford when the salary cap goes up). Then signs either a smaller long term deal (b/c now he is a former probowler who hasn't played in a year) or he signs a 1 year deal hopes, he doesn't get hurt and plays well enough to get the huge deal the following season.

If I were advising my client, I'd say take the 8 to 10 mill. signing bonus now rather than waiting 1 or more years for the bigger payoff that may never materialize.
 
Originally posted by Surferosa
Folks, Merman hit the nail on the head. Exellent post. If we want to sign Ogun to a long term, deal, we clearly have the cap room this year to do so. Remember, his cap number for this year right now is already $1.8 mil.

I think its merely a question of wanting to see what his vaslue is in the market before committing to him lobg term. Money is not the issue here.
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You're right. Miami has no reason to sign Ogun now. His market value goes down as market money dries up. I don't care what Drews demands were. They were unrealistic for a RFA. Ogun will eventually sign with Miami b/c it's his best choice.
 
I would like a 5 year 18 million dollar contract with a 8 million dollar signing bonus, split up in a 5 million up front and a 3 million dollar bonus if they pick up the option to keep him in the third year. With enough incentives to reach 25 million dollars over the 5 years.

Something along those lines.
 
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