Ho Ho Ho!!! Phins Pass Blocking Not As Bad As Many Think

[roy_miami]

This piece of evidence goes to show that it is average and not terrible, and certainly not the worst in the NFL or the worst in the history as some believe.

Or maybe its just a meaningless number.

 

[LandShark13]

Dont need stats good or bad to show me what I can see with my eyes. Our pass blocking is embarrassingly bad. /endthread

 

[J. David Wannyheimer]

Those who don't get it don't get that they don't get it.

 

[FinfanInBuffalo]

The correlation between PFF's pass blocking efficiency statistic and the percentage of passing plays in which the QB is pressured is an unbelievable -1.0. A perfect correlation. The more a QB is pressured, the worse PFF's pass blocking efficiency statistic.

This tells me they are using pressures heavily to calculate pass blocking efficiency.

The correlation between the time the ball is thrown in (as measured by PFF) and PFF's pass blocking efficiency statistic is -0.06. In other words, there is no relationship at all between how long after the snap the ball is thrown and PFF's assessment of pass blocking efficiency.

This is not surprising to me. You have to remember that football is played by humans and coached by humans. I think the offense will take as much time as the defense allows (within the framework of their offensive system) to complete passes (to get more chunk yardage). The offense will adjust what it is doing to offset what the defense is doing. Look at it this way. If an offense tries to run pass plays that use a mix of 3, 5, and 7 step drops and are getting pressured too often on the slower developing plays, they will stop running them. This will bring the % of pressures back in line with other teams, but not because the line is just as good, but because they are compensating for a worse line. This has the cost of making the offense more predictable and easier to defend. This has also been a common complaint on this message board.

They will also keep TEs and backs in to block. This may result in fewer pressures but at the expense of fewer targets.

According to PFF, 5 of the Dolphins' 58 sacks this season have occurred in 2.5 seconds or fewer after the snap.

According to PFF, Ryan Tannehill has been sacked on average 3.8 seconds after the snap, which is 0.195 seconds faster than the average QB and isn't significantly different statistically from the league norm.

First, 0.195 seconds on average is not insignificant on the field. It is the difference between getting sacked and merely pressured on many, many plays,. Second, the time to sack used by PFF has already been shown to be inaccurate by many people (since they go by the whistle not the contact with the QB).

In the end, the numbers alone mean nothing. When PFF has a person (or persons), presumably with no agenda, look at the plays, they determined that the Dolphins problem with sacks is primarily due the to OL. That is not surprising to me. It doesn't contradict any of the other stats they collect.

 

[Shouright]

First, 0.195 seconds on average is not insignificant on the field. It is the difference between getting sacked and merely pressured on many, many plays,. Second, the time to sack used by PFF has already been shown to be inaccurate by many people (since they go by the whistle not the contact with the QB).

...which could be the reason that PFF's "time to be sacked" variable and the total number of sacks suffered by teams correlates at only 0.33.

In the end, the numbers alone mean nothing. When PFF has a person (or persons), presumably with no agenda, look at the plays, they determined that the Dolphins problem with sacks is primarily due the to OL. That is not surprising to me. It doesn't contradict any of the other stats they collect.

Right, but there are inconsistencies in the data that need attention in my opinion, and then we have the game footage analyzed by Sterling Sharpe earlier in the year, which showed that Tannehill was getting sacked after having time to throw to open targets but for some reason not making the throws. And that says nothing about his movement in and out of the pocket, and how that relates to sacks.

I think in the end this is one of those things that has been mistakenly characterized as an "either-or" dilemma that's probably really a "both." I think the best way to make sense of the whole of the information available is to believe that the offensive line is below average with regard to pass protection, and that Ryan Tannehill is also below average with regard to awareness of the rush, awareness of when quicker throws need to be made in the face of the rush, and movement in and out of the pocket. You put those variables together and you get league-leading sack numbers.

 

[FinfanInBuffalo]

...which could be the reason that PFF's "time to be sacked" variable and the total number of sacks suffered by teams correlates at only 0.33.

Right, but there are inconsistencies in the data that need attention in my opinion, and then we have the game footage analyzed by Sterling Sharpe earlier in the year, which showed that Tannehill was getting sacked after having time to throw to open targets but for some reason not making the throws. And that says nothing about his movement in and out of the pocket, and how that relates to sacks.

I think in the end this is one of those things that has been mistakenly characterized as an "either-or" dilemma that's probably really a "both." I think the best way to make sense of the whole of the information available is to believe that the offensive line is below average with regard to pass protection, and that Ryan Tannehill is also below average with regard to awareness of the rush, awareness of when quicker throws need to be made in the face of the rush, and movement in and out of the pocket. You put those variables together and you get league-leading sack numbers.

I want to see Tannehill play behind a decent OL before making any firm judgements about his abilities. Does he need to improve in all aspects of his play? Sure. I think he has done remarkably well under the circumstances. I can say that I don't see a QB that looks or plays confused or scared. I see a 2nd year QB that makes decent chicken salad out of chicken ****.

 

[Shouright]

I want to see Tannehill play behind a decent OL before making any firm judgements about his abilities. Does he need to improve in all aspects of his play? Sure. I think he has done remarkably well under the circumstances. I can say that I don't see a QB that looks or plays confused or scared. I see a 2nd year QB that makes decent chicken salad out of chicken ****.

I'm completely satisfied with how Tannehill has played this year overall. For him to get to this level of play in only his second year, with his level of inexperience at the position, is a very positive sign in my opinion.

Like I've said since the offseason, if he can get his QB rating up around 85 this year, which he has, the season will be a smashing success for him and the team, because it will allow the team to move forward and build around him, rather than thinking it has to go back to the drawing board at the most important position in the game.

 

[WVDolphan]

I dont understand why people cant see when watching the games that our large number of sacks given up stem from BOTH.......

VERY POOR blocking by the OL AND the QB not being very skilled at avoiding rushers. I dont understand why people think it has to be one or the other. In fact, both the stats and the game tape demonstrates clearly that both are an issue.

Yes, of course there are times when the QB could not have avoided a sack even if he were the best in the league at avoiding them(probably Romo is), but that dosent mean our QB is skilled at moving in the pocket or avoiding the rush. He isnt. He needs to get better at this if it is even possible to get better at.

 

[Ilovemyfins4eva]

I dont understand why people cant see when watching the games that our large number of sacks given up stem from BOTH.......

VERY POOR blocking by the OL AND the QB not being very skilled at avoiding rushers. I dont understand why people think it has to be one or the other. In fact, both the stats and the game tape demonstrates clearly that both are an issue.

Yes, of course there are times when the QB could not have avoided a sack even if he were the best in the league at avoiding them(probably Romo is), but that dosent mean our QB is skilled at moving in the pocket or avoiding the rush. He isnt. He needs to get better at this if it is even possible to get better at.

very well put, although i would have to say i put most the blame on the o line.

out of the 58 times tannehill has been sacked, id say 57 of them were on the o line.

if u cant see that this guy is improving dramatically week in and week out, and that even if we had aaron rodgers, tom brady, peyton manning, they would also not be able to do much with this o line, then we must be watching different games. he is the least of our problems

 

[J. David Wannyheimer]

Tannehill has used his feet to avoid some sacks though. IMO he is not great at avoiding the rush, but I also don't think he is terrible at it like some want me to believe. I do think the blame falls significantly on the pass protection and IMO the fact that the sack numbers changed dramatically when we replaced the left side of the line supports that argument.

Daniel Thomas and Lamar Miller have both been absolutely terrible on blitz pickups, too. In all honesty, I think the OL maybe is getting bashed unfairly, and it's because the backs are responsible for a really good chunk of those sacks. Thomas in particular has been flat out terrible as a pass blocker.

Regardless of what happens, I think we all agree that this team will devote a LOT of money and resources to the OL in the offseason and we'll know one way or another next season.

 

[roy_miami]

I dont understand why people cant see when watching the games that our large number of sacks given up stem from BOTH.......

VERY POOR blocking by the OL AND the QB not being very skilled at avoiding rushers. I dont understand why people think it has to be one or the other. In fact, both the stats and the game tape demonstrates clearly that both are an issue.

Yes, of course there are times when the QB could not have avoided a sack even if he were the best in the league at avoiding them(probably Romo is), but that dosent mean our QB is skilled at moving in the pocket or avoiding the rush. He isnt. He needs to get better at this if it is even possible to get better at.

Tannehill has some natural instinct at feeling pocket pressure, its one of the first things I look for and I saw it in him last season. Why he seems to have regressed or has become more inconsistent is anyones guess but my guess is he just has too much going on in his head and the coaching staff is trying train him to stay in the pocket. I predict he'll get much better in the next season or two once the game slows down for him.

 

[rent this space]

I dont understand why people cant see when watching the games that our large number of sacks given up stem from BOTH.......

VERY POOR blocking by the OL AND the QB not being very skilled at avoiding rushers. I dont understand why people think it has to be one or the other. In fact, both the stats and the game tape demonstrates clearly that both are an issue.

Yes, of course there are times when the QB could not have avoided a sack even if he were the best in the league at avoiding them(probably Romo is), but that dosent mean our QB is skilled at moving in the pocket or avoiding the rush. He isnt. He needs to get better at this if it is even possible to get better at.

I think he will get better, but I don't think it will ever be a strength. Sensing pressure is an intangible, some guys just have knack for it.
The current situation is a combination of an inexperienced QB and a complete failure by the O-line, but I believe it's mostly on the line. When he gets sacked by the the guy he points to before the snap, it's hard to blame Tannehill for much.
Also, the OC's simplistic approach doesn't help. It would be nice if he made things more difficult for the opposing D to diagnose

 

[WVDolphan]

Tannehill has some natural instinct at feeling pocket pressure, its one of the first things I look for and I saw it in him last season. Why he seems to have regressed or has become more inconsistent is anyones guess but my guess is he just has too much going on in his head and the coaching staff is trying train him to stay in the pocket. I predict he'll get much better in the next season or two once the game slows down for him.

I thought he moved better last year TBH.

Maybe he isnt sensing the rush better this year because as you suggest, he is trying to learn more things and has more going on in his head. Perhaps the game is just too fast for him. Maybe he is not a natural at the position and we need to get a better QB. Perhaps Tannehill just dosent have the incredible skill it takes to do everything an NFL QB needs to be able to do.

 

[FinfanInBuffalo]

I thought he moved better last year TBH.

Maybe he isnt sensing the rush better this year because as you suggest, he is trying to learn more things and has more going on in his head. Perhaps the game is just too fast for him. Maybe he is not a natural at the position and we need to get a better QB. Perhaps Tannehill just dosent have the incredible skill it takes to do everything an NFL QB needs to be able to do.

Now there is a logical conclusion, if he can't makeup for a historically bad OL, IN HIS SECOND YEAR, then he doesn't have what it takes....

or maybe, he has progressed just fine and improvements on the line will allow him to be even better.

 

[So Be]

Southbeach, I'm not sure what the point of this thread is. Is it really to say that our OL isn't that bad?

I disagree, and in my previous posts, I listed some of the reasons why I disagree.

For the record, I think Tannehill's 'pocket management' is merely average -- I don't think he's particularly great at it. But right now, it is stunning to me that anyone can argue that our pass protection isn't terrible. And that's not just the OL -- Daniel Thomas and Lamar Miller have both been terrible as pass blockers. See this past Sunday when Thomas actually wound up being the guy who sacked Tannehill.

J D, the point is that the OL is not as bad as many believe it is but, in no way does that imply that they are good, which would be silly. Saying that they are the worst in sacks at 41 is true. Saying that they were absolutely horrible vs Buff (other than Clabo) is also true.

However, an OL is not judged on just sacks (41 of 626 pass plays) or just the Buff game. It is judged on the 15 games and 626 pass plays. The hits and hurries, which are facts, do most definitely matter and must be included in any reasonable evaluation. The stats from PFF show that Miami is at #18 when including all pressures. That is much more realistic than just going on stats, and included in every NFL teams grading of an OL.

These are just stats. Let's go to PFF's eyeball test. Dolphins are #17 in pass blocking, with a negative 1.7 grade, which includes RB's, TE's and WR's. This is based on individual grades and not as a unit.

Let's break down the individual play. Pouncey is the #1 graded center in pass block, Jerry is #6 at RG, and Cog is still at #11 despite the games missed. That's for the entire NFL, and shows without a doubt that our interior pass protect was VG.

Now the problem. Clabo is #52 of OT's, even with his VG play in the last 7 games. Martin is #60, and McKennie is at #62 in games played for Miami. That absolutely sucks, and needs to be fixed. Even with this, there are still 14 OL's as bad or worse. It is a league wide problem, and run blocking is much worse.

I agree with you on Tannehill being average in his pocket presence this year but, also see many plays where he had nowhere to go. IF he was able to side step here, scramble there or, throw a few more balls away, it could have made a difference on maybe a sack a game being turned into a hit or hurry, and the OL looks a little better for those only seeing sacks (which makes no sense).