I like Miami's TE room right now. | Page 5 | FinHeaven - Miami Dolphins Forums

I like Miami's TE room right now.

gofins60

Starter
Joined
Sep 26, 2011
Messages
2,264
Reaction score
966
Location
Allentown, PA
Athletically speaking Pitts and Gesicki are nearly identical freaks. The question I ask is Pitts redundant or the just the next shiny thing?


View attachment 73376

Gesicki has great hands, and makes some nice catches. However, he's not going to gain many yards after the catch; he is tackled easily. And, it appears that Pitts is pretty much identical in size to Gesicki. A TE like Gronk runs over and through DBs, but Gesicki can't do this. Blocking ability aside, is Pitts able to run over people like Gronk? From the highlights I've seen, Gesicki appears to be an equal or maybe even better pass catcher than Pitts, so IMO unless Pitts is hard to tackle and can run over people he's not needed in Miami. The Fins need a Gronk, not another Gesicki.
 

Gatorboy999120

Club Member
Joined
Mar 8, 2021
Messages
3,360
Reaction score
3,654
Age
33
Location
Boca Raton, Florida
Gesicki has great hands, and makes some nice catches. However, he's not going to gain many yards after the catch; he is tackled easily. And, it appears that Pitts is pretty much identical in size to Gesicki. A TE like Gronk runs over and through DBs, but Gesicki can't do this. Blocking ability aside, is Pitts able to run over people like Gronk? From the highlights I've seen, Gesicki appears to be an equal or maybe even better pass catcher than Pitts, so IMO unless Pitts is hard to tackle and can run over people he's not needed in Miami. The Fins need a Gronk, not another Gesicki.
Watch some more tape, perhaps! I've watched every Gator and Dolphins game that these two have played in..not close to the level of Kyle is Mike.
 

SammySmif

Starter
Joined
Mar 12, 2005
Messages
1,511
Reaction score
337
Feel free. Way to tell me facts why I am wrong instead of trying to merely insult me. Can't way til we don't draft his *** and can't wait til he isn't the all pro you declared him to be.
Ive mentioned plenty of facts here for months.

You can use basic google skill to look at his combine results and scouting reports.
Should give you some clarity on why your opinion is foolish.

Pretty funny how hard you root for this guy to fail. We will be sure and revisit this, dont you worry about that.
 

SammySmif

Starter
Joined
Mar 12, 2005
Messages
1,511
Reaction score
337
The fact that it has to be said that a guy who wouldn't even be the most athletic TE on the Dolphins and didn't produce a ton in college isn't an automatic All-Pro/HoFer shows how ridiculous this last week has become.
Your defintion of athletic is pretty hilarious.
Lots of folks here showing they barely watch college football or lean about the prospects they run their mouths about.
 

gregorygrant83

Club Member
Joined
Mar 23, 2009
Messages
8,204
Reaction score
4,689
Pitts is a wide receiver who can play tight end. He is better than Parker and will be our number one wr. Doubt we get him, but I will be happy with chase.
People keep saying this. The fact is th te role is changing and evolving. It's not just the old inline tight ends anymore. I would have loved to see some people if they were around back in the 60's and 70's trying to wrap their minds around the fact the fullback, which was once the deep back in I formation with the half back being the up back, was now being used as the up back/blocking back and halfback was now the deep back. Things change and roles change. Just because people are using the tight end in a varity of different ways depending on the offensive scheme doesn't mean you can't call them a tight end.
 

Digital

Starter
Club Member
Joined
Feb 5, 2008
Messages
10,900
Reaction score
12,448
That's a bit of an oversimplification. Gronk and Hernandez were seeing the same number of targets from day one and Hernandez was never strictly a slot, nor Gronk strictly inline. Gronk's best season as a pro by a pretty significant margin was when he was lined up next to Hernandez.

I agree that in order for it to show its full potential both TEs in the two TE set should be able to put their hand in the ground and take on a DE one on one. Gesicki can't do that, probably never will be able to, and that's a good part of the reason I don't expect him to be talking about an extension in Miami. But you can still run a two TE set with him as one of the TEs. Maybe not every play against every opponent but it can be a core concept in an effective offense.
I disagree. Gronkowski improved the offense the most when Hernandez was not there. After Hernandez left, the Patriots were over 1 yard per play better in the run game, and significantly more than 1 yard per play in the passing game. Those were his best seasons statistically, but it depends on which statistics we value most, personal or team. Neither answer is wrong.

Another point you made was that BOTH Gronk and Hernandez played in-line TE at times. That was a point I made as well about Gesicki and Pitts potentially working together. Which one is the blocker? Neither is good at it, and while Pitts is better at it, every DC out there would want you using Pitts as a blocker--much like they always wanted Dan Marino to hand the ball off. It defeats his greatest strength by choosing not to use it. Clearly Gesicki is in the same boat ... loses much of his value if he is blocking. Neither of these guys is the blocker Gronk is .... not even close.

There are traditional roles in NFL offenses, and no matter who fulfills those roles the roles exist. For example, the offense wants 1 guy with elite speed to keep one safety high--opening up the middle for routes. Typically they want an audible option to keep in pass protectors to deal with blitzes, and these usually include 1 RB, 1 TE, and/or both. The heyday of the Buddy Ryan (and Rex Ryan) overload blitzes--which are still very popular today--is when the offense locks itself into not having enough blockers. The entire benefit of the Wildcat formation was that it provided one extra blocker. So numbers matter, and those blockers need a level of competence.

Defenses today gamble a lot. They pull lots of stunts, area overloads, CB and SS blitzes, zone drops, lots of gambling because offenses are scoring a lot of points with this new ruleset ... so to get a stop, defenses are gambling. Without the flexibility on offense to audible into more protection ... a team is going to be dominated by a defense. To a certain degree, the NFL chess game is very complex. But, there is a basic tic-tac-toe level of it that deals with numbers. Without those audible blockers, the Defense will overload blitz you and sack your QB a LOT, because without those blockers available--even if they do not block on that play--then you've just given the DC the first two moves in a tic-tac-toe game ... and he's going to beat you.

So the reality is that you still need 1 WR with elite speed ... we'll say that's Will Fuller/Albert Wilson/Jakeem Grant/Kenny Stills or whatever player you want to plug into that role. It is definitely not a TE. You'll need 5 OL and 1 QB. That's 7 of the 11 positions. The remaining 4 need to fill these roles: 1) RB, 2) TE, 3) Slot, 4) WR. That WR is is generally your primary WR#1 who generates most of the targets and receptions. Currently that's our DeVante Parker role, so that's the role I'm saying Pitts would need to play. The other receiving position is the Slot, and that's the position that both Gesicki and Pitts both play. In today's NFL it's called the Move TE, but it's a variation of the Slot. A Move TE requires the RB to be good at blocking. A two TE set requires one to be the Slot (Move TE) and another to be the TE (in-line TE). When you play a Move TE and a Slot ... that's essentially a 4 WR set. If you play that too often, defenses will destroy your QB and you cannot stop them.

Pitts can be great as a Move TE. Pitts can be good as a WR#1. Gesicki can be great as a Move TE. Any other role for him is considerably less effective. IMHO, we should pay Gesicki and ADD a true WR#1 who can be great ... like Ja'Marr Chase. That's how I see it.
 

Gatorboy999120

Club Member
Joined
Mar 8, 2021
Messages
3,360
Reaction score
3,654
Age
33
Location
Boca Raton, Florida
I disagree. Gronkowski improved the offense the most when Hernandez was not there. After Hernandez left, the Patriots were over 1 yard per play better in the run game, and significantly more than 1 yard per play in the passing game. Those were his best seasons statistically, but it depends on which statistics we value most, personal or team. Neither answer is wrong.

Another point you made was that BOTH Gronk and Hernandez played in-line TE at times. That was a point I made as well about Gesicki and Pitts potentially working together. Which one is the blocker? Neither is good at it, and while Pitts is better at it, every DC out there would want you using Pitts as a blocker--much like they always wanted Dan Marino to hand the ball off. It defeats his greatest strength by choosing not to use it. Clearly Gesicki is in the same boat ... loses much of his value if he is blocking. Neither of these guys is the blocker Gronk is .... not even close.

There are traditional roles in NFL offenses, and no matter who fulfills those roles the roles exist. For example, the offense wants 1 guy with elite speed to keep one safety high--opening up the middle for routes. Typically they want an audible option to keep in pass protectors to deal with blitzes, and these usually include 1 RB, 1 TE, and/or both. The heyday of the Buddy Ryan (and Rex Ryan) overload blitzes--which are still very popular today--is when the offense locks itself into not having enough blockers. The entire benefit of the Wildcat formation was that it provided one extra blocker. So numbers matter, and those blockers need a level of competence.

Defenses today gamble a lot. They pull lots of stunts, area overloads, CB and SS blitzes, zone drops, lots of gambling because offenses are scoring a lot of points with this new ruleset ... so to get a stop, defenses are gambling. Without the flexibility on offense to audible into more protection ... a team is going to be dominated by a defense. To a certain degree, the NFL chess game is very complex. But, there is a basic tic-tac-toe level of it that deals with numbers. Without those audible blockers, the Defense will overload blitz you and sack your QB a LOT, because without those blockers available--even if they do not block on that play--then you've just given the DC the first two moves in a tic-tac-toe game ... and he's going to beat you.

So the reality is that you still need 1 WR with elite speed ... we'll say that's Will Fuller/Albert Wilson/Jakeem Grant/Kenny Stills or whatever player you want to plug into that role. It is definitely not a TE. You'll need 5 OL and 1 QB. That's 7 of the 11 positions. The remaining 4 need to fill these roles: 1) RB, 2) TE, 3) Slot, 4) WR. That WR is is generally your primary WR#1 who generates most of the targets and receptions. Currently that's our DeVante Parker role, so that's the role I'm saying Pitts would need to play. The other receiving position is the Slot, and that's the position that both Gesicki and Pitts both play. In today's NFL it's called the Move TE, but it's a variation of the Slot. A Move TE requires the RB to be good at blocking. A two TE set requires one to be the Slot (Move TE) and another to be the TE (in-line TE). When you play a Move TE and a Slot ... that's essentially a 4 WR set. If you play that too often, defenses will destroy your QB and you cannot stop them.

Pitts can be great as a Move TE. Pitts can be good as a WR#1. Gesicki can be great as a Move TE. Any other role for him is considerably less effective. IMHO, we should pay Gesicki and ADD a true WR#1 who can be great ... like Ja'Marr Chase. That's how I see it.
You can add Pitts the "Unicorn," Trade Gesicki if you like, and still add a good to great WR @#18 or #36 or even #50 or #81. TE is a less deep position than WR this year, by a boat load...much more so! Some say WR is the deepest position in the draft!
 

Digital

Starter
Club Member
Joined
Feb 5, 2008
Messages
10,900
Reaction score
12,448
You can add Pitts the "Unicorn," Trade Gesicki if you like, and still add a good to great WR @#18 or #36 or even #50 or #81. TE is a less deep position than WR this year, by a boat load...much more so! Some say WR is the deepest position in the draft!
IMHO, the only argument to move on from Gesicki would be if you cannot re-sign him because his asking price is too high. Assuming that is the case ... his trade value is very very low. Essentially, it's not that much more than cutting him. Bad teams let their good players go. Some exceptional franchises, such as the Pittsburgh Steelers, have an uncanny knack of letting go of talented weapons and replacing them with another kid they've been grooming. It's unreal that the Steelers can let go of Santonio Holmes, Plaxico Burresss, Mike Wallace, Antonio Brown ... etc., etc., etc., and keep finding exceptional WR's. Just crazy how impressive their drafting and developing of WR's has been. But ... the Dolphins have not had a TE as talented as Gesicki since the Dan Marino days. Jettisoning Gesicki would be .... classic Dolphins.

Grier is exceptional at moving around a draft board to get value and move into a position where he's toward the end of a talent tier and where it fits a need. Really good at that, and it's a wonderful skill. But his drafting has been ... meh, kinda average. He drafted Tunsil who is a Pro Bowler, and turned him into lots of draft picks ... but no Pro Bowlers. He drafted Minkah Fitzpatrick (whom I loved) and didn't play him in his obvious FS position (and I never stopped telling everyone that's where he should play), and traded him away too and Minkah became an instant-All-Pro every year since. Grier moved up and took Xavien Howard (whom I was banging the table for as well), and he has become one of the best defenders in the NFL ... when healthy. But let's face it ... Grier has had a lot of draft picks and not yet produced a lot of top tier talents. The jury is still out on Grier. How he does this draft will greatly impact how he is perceived.
 

Gatorboy999120

Club Member
Joined
Mar 8, 2021
Messages
3,360
Reaction score
3,654
Age
33
Location
Boca Raton, Florida
IMHO, the only argument to move on from Gesicki would be if you cannot re-sign him because his asking price is too high. Assuming that is the case ... his trade value is very very low. Essentially, it's not that much more than cutting him. Bad teams let their good players go. Some exceptional franchises, such as the Pittsburgh Steelers, have an uncanny knack of letting go of talented weapons and replacing them with another kid they've been grooming. It's unreal that the Steelers can let go of Santonio Holmes, Plaxico Burresss, Mike Wallace, Antonio Brown ... etc., etc., etc., and keep finding exceptional WR's. Just crazy how impressive their drafting and developing of WR's has been. But ... the Dolphins have not had a TE as talented as Gesicki since the Dan Marino days. Jettisoning Gesicki would be .... classic Dolphins.

Grier is exceptional at moving around a draft board to get value and move into a position where he's toward the end of a talent tier and where it fits a need. Really good at that, and it's a wonderful skill. But his drafting has been ... meh, kinda average. He drafted Tunsil who is a Pro Bowler, and turned him into lots of draft picks ... but no Pro Bowlers. He drafted Minkah Fitzpatrick (whom I loved) and didn't play him in his obvious FS position (and I never stopped telling everyone that's where he should play), and traded him away too and Minkah became an instant-All-Pro every year since. Grier moved up and took Xavien Howard (whom I was banging the table for as well), and he has become one of the best defenders in the NFL ... when healthy. But let's face it ... Grier has had a lot of draft picks and not yet produced a lot of top tier talents. The jury is still out on Grier. How he does this draft will greatly impact how he is perceived.
I think Grier gets a lot of credit for moving around the board and wheeling and dealing..but little for picking the "Right" guys with those picks he acquires..I have little to no faith in him..at all! Hopefully Flo has some say.. Please..Dear Jesus, God..let this be the case! 🙏
 

PHINANALYST

Seasoned Veteran
Club Member
Joined
Nov 1, 2005
Messages
1,689
Reaction score
225
Age
55
Location
North Carolina
While it isn't ‘special’ ... we can certainly get bye with what we have now ...

If we aren’t going to use PITTS as a wide out, then we really don’t need him ... we don’t need him as a TE or Slot WR ...

UNLESS, we don’t want to pay GESICKI next year ....
 

Ferretsquig

Perennial All-Pro
Joined
Jun 2, 2002
Messages
7,968
Reaction score
500
Location
Carolina
I disagree. Gronkowski improved the offense the most when Hernandez was not there. After Hernandez left, the Patriots were over 1 yard per play better in the run game, and significantly more than 1 yard per play in the passing game. Those were his best seasons statistically, but it depends on which statistics we value most, personal or team. Neither answer is wrong.

Another point you made was that BOTH Gronk and Hernandez played in-line TE at times. That was a point I made as well about Gesicki and Pitts potentially working together. Which one is the blocker? Neither is good at it, and while Pitts is better at it, every DC out there would want you using Pitts as a blocker--much like they always wanted Dan Marino to hand the ball off. It defeats his greatest strength by choosing not to use it. Clearly Gesicki is in the same boat ... loses much of his value if he is blocking. Neither of these guys is the blocker Gronk is .... not even close.

I don't agree that it defeats his strength, rather it complements it. Gronk was a very good player but what made him indispensable in that offense was the fact that you didn't know what he was going to do when he lined up. That's why I felt better with Smythe out there and continue to think hes the best TE on this team. Even though you might think it when you look at his run/pass splits they're pretty even. Smythe isn't a great pass catcher by any stretch of the imagination but hes competent enough to occupy a backer and create that sliver of doubt in a defender's mind. I don't see how anyone would think that sending him out in a pass pattern is wasting his ability as a blocker, even if that's the stronger area in his game.

Its exciting to think what a player like Pitts could do for the run game if hes as good as they say he is as a pass catcher and at least competent as a blocker.
 

Digital

Starter
Club Member
Joined
Feb 5, 2008
Messages
10,900
Reaction score
12,448
I don't agree that it defeats his strength, rather it complements it. Gronk was a very good player but what made him indispensable in that offense was the fact that you didn't know what he was going to do when he lined up. That's why I felt better with Smythe out there and continue to think hes the best TE on this team. Even though you might think it when you look at his run/pass splits they're pretty even. Smythe isn't a great pass catcher by any stretch of the imagination but hes competent enough to occupy a backer and create that sliver of doubt in a defender's mind. I don't see how anyone would think that sending him out in a pass pattern is wasting his ability as a blocker, even if that's the stronger area in his game.

Its exciting to think what a player like Pitts could do for the run game if hes as good as they say he is as a pass catcher and at least competent as a blocker.
If your concept for a two TE offense is to have Gesicki + Smythe, that could work. Alternatively, if your concept is to lose Gesicki and use our primo draft pick simply to replace him with Kyle Pitts, then Kyle Pitts + Smythe could work also. But where we disagree is if you think Gesicki + Pitts would work. If that's your concept, then we're simply not going to agree on this one brother. Personally, I prefer the option of Gesicki + Chase to the option of Pitts - Gesicki, or Gesicki + Pitts. But, reasonable minds may differ on that perspective.
 

1972forever

Super Donator
Club Member
Joined
Sep 14, 2019
Messages
4,126
Reaction score
6,230
Age
68
Location
Miami
Agree on the surface. However, is Pitts that much more elite than what we currently have? Two, does our FO see Gesicki worth the free agent money he will be seeking?
I believe Gesicki will be much better once they upgrade the WR unit. At the end of last year he was playing injured and the Dolphins were so depleted at WR, opposing teams could double cover Gesicki and single cover all the WR’s.

When defenses have to worry about covering Parker, Fuller, the rookie WR, and Wilson, they won’t be able to double cover Gesicki. Also Gesicki will be in a contract year, so I expect him to be much more productive next season.

The only advantage I see to drafting Pitts is that he will be on a rookie contract and the Dolphins might not want to pay Gesicki the money he will want as a free agent next year. Losing Gesicki in free agency
and having Pitts for the following 4 years would certainly make up for the loss of Gesicki.
 
Top Bottom