I would like to hear more opinions of CK and Boomer about our draft plans. | Page 19 | FinHeaven - Miami Dolphins Forums

I would like to hear more opinions of CK and Boomer about our draft plans.

fishypete said:
My assumptions are no more or less than yours are.
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I would say that your assumptions are less valid based on the actions of the team and management. On the valuation assumption, reality is that BP has not historically drafted OL high and has drafted defensive players high. Right or wrong there is simply no reason to believe that BP values OL as highly as you do. On the other hand, BP highly values DE/OLB. Almost every insider believes that C. Long is our target.

On the need assumption, BP's teams have always been overweighted at DL/LB. After JT we have nobody of note at DE and most people admit that he will probably be traded. We've brought in some bodies at OLB but many of those will be just STs guys. We missed on Pace which was the one guy we pursued that was offered starter money. So clearly we wanted at least one more starter there. While there is no question that we also have a need on the OL to say we don't have a need at DE/OLB is just blind.

There are more reasons and none are conclusive but they are IMO much sounder than we really need OL and the media and I think J. Long is really good. Now bear in mind I like J. Long and would be very happy if he were the pick but looking at the team's actions objectively it is unreasonable to conclude that the team shares my opinion.
 
The Calvin Pace attempted signing is, IMO, full and complete proof that Chris Long's position is a position of need. No amount of argument could ever prove otherwise.
 
fishypete said:
I have to trust the system....more than a person's feelings...sorry CK.

I want to post this info;

Al's Draft Scoop[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] ...The Draft is still twenty eight days away, but the Draft buzz circulating throughout the league, is some NFL teams believe [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Virginia OG Branden Albert[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] has the ability to play left tackle at the next level, which will greatly enhance his stock for the upcoming Draft. Albert is a former basketball player who didn't begin his football career until his junior year in high school. He's very athletic for a big man, and ranked first overall at the combine (for the top offensive linemen) in the 10 yard split (1.71) and recorded a 5.17 forty, which was faster than most linemen including Jake Long (5.22) of Michigan. Albert's broad jump of 9'-3" also ranked number one among the top linemen, and his 4.78 short shuttle time ranked second among the top lineman, and only behind Jake Long's 4.73 time. Albert started every game (37 in all) that he played at Virginia, and played two games at left tackle this past season. He has a chance to be the third offensive lineman taken off the board, ahead of highly touted tackles Chris Williams of Vanderbilt and Jeffrey Otah of Pittsburgh.
[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Now after reading this...I can hear many say...Gee...lets select Albert. Can't you hear it also? The problem is...he only played LT in two games...and against what team?[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]His stats are almost identical to J. Long....yet so many here have said...J. Long isn't a LT....Thats the part that makes your laugh. If J. Long isn't a LT...How can Albert be a LT?[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Some will say Albert has the potential...J.Long must also have that potential....since they are so identical in their times.
[/FONT]
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pancakebunnyur9-1.jpg
 
rafael said:
I would say that your assumptions are less valid based on the actions of the team and management. On the valuation assumption, reality is that BP has not historically drafted OL high and has drafted defensive players high. Right or wrong there is simply no reason to believe that BP values OL as highly as you do. On the other hand, BP highly values DE/OLB. Almost every insider believes that C. Long is our target.

On the need assumption, BP's teams have always been overweighted at DL/LB. After JT we have nobody of note at DE and most people admit that he will probably be traded. We've brought in some bodies at OLB but many of those will be just STs guys. We missed on Pace which was the one guy we pursued that was offered starter money. So clearly we wanted at least one more starter there. While there is no question that we also have a need on the OL to say we don't have a need at DE/OLB is just blind.

There are more reasons and none are conclusive but they are IMO much sounder than we really need OL and the media and I think he's really good. Now bear in mind I like J. Long and would be very happy if he were the pick but looking at the team's actions objectively it is unreasonable to conclude that the team shares my opinion.
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Every insider doesn't say that C. Long is the Dolphins choice...and Taylor won't play DE in a 3-4...just like C. Long wouldn't. As I said...linebackers are found everywhere in the draft...so far they haven't been found with the first pick in any recent draft...and I don't see C. Long any better than Gholston...or Groves...or Rivers...in fact the're plenty of good linebackers in this draft.

As far as Pace goes...I for one don't believe he was a top item for the Dolphins...he wasn't traded for at the start of Free agency...in fact the first player we picked up right away, was a guard. If Parcells really wanted Pace...he would have been the first or second player...not an after thought...and does anyone doubt that with all the cap money left...if he was really a need...that Parcells wouldn't have gotten him? He could have gotten Pace for alot cheaper than what it will cost to get C. long...thats for sure.
 
fishypete said:
Every insider doesn't say that C. Long is the Dolphins choice...and Taylor won't play DE in a 3-4...just like C. Long wouldn't. As I said...linebackers are found everywhere in the draft...so far they haven't been found with the first pick in any recent draft...and I don't see C. Long any better than Gholston...or Groves...or Rivers...in fact the're plenty of good linebackers in this draft.

As far as Pace goes...I for one don't believe he was a top item for the Dolphins...he wasn't traded for at the start of Free agency...in fact the first player we picked up right away, was a guard. If Parcells really wanted Pace...he would have been the first or second player...not an after thought...and does anyone doubt that with all the cap money left...if he was really a need...that Parcells wouldn't have gotten him? He could have gotten Pace for alot cheaper than what it will cost to get C. long...thats for sure.
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Calvin Pace was absolutely targeted on the first day of free agency at the same time as all of the other free agents we signed that day. Your recollection of the situation is faulty. They contacted him on the first day, and Calvin took longer than they expected to make his decision, and decided to visit the Jets. The Jets and Dolphins got into a bidding war for him and in the end he chose the Jets because he felt like the Dolphins wanted him to take too big a role as a leader of the rebuilding process.
 
ckparrothead said:
Calvin Pace was absolutely targeted on the first day of free agency at the same time as all of the other free agents we signed that day. Your recollection of the situation is faulty. They contacted him on the first day, and Calvin took longer than they expected to make his decision, and decided to visit the Jets. The Jets and Dolphins got into a bidding war for him and in the end he chose the Jets because he felt like the Dolphins wanted him to take too big a role as a leader of the rebuilding process.
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My memory is just fine...thanks;

http://49ers.pressdemocrat.com/default.asp?item=1036034

http://cowboysblog.dallasnews.com/archives/2008/02/jerry-talking-trade-with-tuna.html

Then the news on Pace;

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Al's Free Agency Scoop[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]...The Miami Dolphins are the frontrunners to land Cardinals DE/OLB Calvin Pace. [/FONT]​

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The Dolphins view Pace as a rush-end OLB and a great fit for their 3-4 scheme and have a visit scheduled with him this morning. The Dolphins will also be entertaining Raiders QB Josh McCown sometime later today. [/FONT]​

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Then;[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The Miami Dolphins[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] have signed former Broncos Wr David Kircus.[/FONT]

Then;​

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Torbor to Fins[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]...[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The Miami Dolphins have signed New York Giants LB Reggie Torbor[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif].[/FONT]​



Then;​


[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Trade[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]...The Dolphins and Cowboys have completed a trade with the Cowboys sending NT Jason Ferguson to the Dolphins for the Fins 6th round pick in the 2009 Draft and a switch of picks in the 2008 Draft.[/FONT]​




[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Then;[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The Miami Dolphins[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] have signed former Jets and Cowboys TE Sean Ryan...Parcells drafted Ryan in Dallas.[/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]​




[/FONT]

[/FONT]Then;

BREAKING NEWS[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]...The Miami Dolphins have signed Titans DT Randy Starks to a multi-year contract[/FONT]

Then;

McCown to Dolphins[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]...The Miami Dolphins have signed Raiders quarterback Josh McCown.[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Then;[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Miami Dolphins[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]...The Miami Dolphins re-signed exclusive rights free agent OG Ike Ndukwe.[/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Then;[/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Miami Dolphins[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]...The Miami Dolphins have agreed to a one-year deal with Bengals WR Tab Perry. [/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]​


[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Then;[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Miami Dolphins[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]...The Miami Dolphins have agreed to terms with Dallas Cowboys S Keith Davis.[/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]​


[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Finally...the news;[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=3275059[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]After visiting with the Dolphins....first....may I remind you, he turned down what the Dolphins offered and chose to go to the Jets...with that figure in hand..as a starting point.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]He played with the Dolphins...and Parcells played with him...and the Jets.[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Not one main player other than Pace has been lost to another team...that the Dolphins made an offer to...or they went after.[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]How many players were brought in...and or signed before Pace? If Pace was the one player that the Dolphins really wanted...would they let him walk away? Or did they let him walk away.[/FONT]

Added note;

Pace reached an agreement with the New York Jets on a six-year, $42 million contract on Monday. The deal, negotiated by agent Pat Dye Jr. and his associates at Atlanta-based ProFiles Sports Management, includes a signing bonus of $20 million and $22 million in total guarantees.
The contract, which makes Pace one of the highest paid linebackers in NFL history, will pay out $26 million in its first three years.
"We think he can help in our defense," Jets general manager Mike Tannenbaum said. "We saw him play in the 3-4 defense last year and we're excited to get him."

Who in their right mind is going to pay a linebacker that kind of money...especially a linebacker who only had one good season...and with that...how much more are you willing to pay C. Long...under the same situation...are you willing to pay him 60 mil...as a unproven Linebacker?

No matter what you may believe about C. Long...he's unproven...until he can show he can play the position and not only play the position...but be one of the greats...because you don't pay 60 mil for just another linebacker.


Isn't just like the Jets...." we think he can help our defense"...WOW.





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fishypete said:
Every insider doesn't say that C. Long is the Dolphins choice...and Taylor won't play DE in a 3-4...just like C. Long wouldn't. As I said...linebackers are found everywhere in the draft...so far they haven't been found with the first pick in any recent draft...and I don't see C. Long any better than Gholston...or Groves...or Rivers...in fact the're plenty of good linebackers in this draft.

As far as Pace goes...I for one don't believe he was a top item for the Dolphins...he wasn't traded for at the start of Free agency...in fact the first player we picked up right away, was a guard. If Parcells really wanted Pace...he would have been the first or second player...not an after thought...and does anyone doubt that with all the cap money left...if he was really a need...that Parcells wouldn't have gotten him? He could have gotten Pace for alot cheaper than what it will cost to get C. long...thats for sure.
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FA started on 2/28. By 2/29 there were reports that we had deal in place with Pace offering $20 million in guaranteed money after he flew in for a visit.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2008/football/nfl/02/29/dolphins.pace/

So your theory is that Pace wasn't a priority and that we didn't contact him on the first day of FA, that he was just an after-thought? Do you think we were just kidding about the $20 million? You believe we offered him more money than we offered any other player b/c we didn't think we needed him or his position?

And you still don't understand that BP doesn't seem to agree with your position valuations. He drafts defense (particularly front 7)early. He doesn't draft OL early.
 
FWIW, Bill Parcells looks at offensive linemen as longterm investments, not immediate payoffs. He's frequently stated in his press conferences with the Cowboys that offensive linemen must have a great work ethic to succeed in the NFL, because they have such a steep road in front of them adding strength, bulk and technique before they're truly NFL ready.
 
FriendofBill said:
FWIW, Bill Parcells looks at offensive linemen as longterm investments, not immediate payoffs. He's frequently stated in his press conferences with the Cowboys that offensive linemen must have a great work ethic to succeed in the NFL, because they have such a steep road in front of them adding strength, bulk and technique before they're truly NFL ready.
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thats why I think Jake Long is just as likely as Chris. Would you rather have an elite RT as your worst case scenario...perennial pro bowler on the line for years to come with great leadership and undeniably important to the running game?

OR

would you rather have a guy who was awesome as a DE in college, who is going to play a whole different position in the NFL. Will he translate into an OLB with no problem? will he be GREAT? what if he never reaches that pro bowl level at this position hes not accustomed to? what if all the drills at his pro day and the evaluation that show his great physical skills just dont transfer over to this position?

the worst case scenario with Jake is a probowl RT - best case is hes a stud LT for over the next decade.

worst case for chris is he is a mediocre OLB (of which we already have 2 greats at the moment btw) and the best case is he is a shawn merriman type.

If he cant play DE I dont see the logic in drafting him when we have such a need on the OLine and could then take BPAs from that point on instead of reaching for a sam baker for instance at 32.
 
Really, I have no idea where this "Chris Long can't play OLB" nonsense is coming from. If Greg Ellis can convert to OLB, and rack up double digit sacks at the age of 32 coming off an Achilles tear, Chris Long has the athletic ability to do it in spades. His quickness drill times were very good, and his 40 yard dash is on par with Shawne Merriman at the same height and weight.

Some NFL people are calling this the best offensive tackle class in 25 years. There will be offensive tackles drafted in the 5th round who will have long careers in the NFL. When you can get a talent like Tony Hills in the 3rd round, there is no need to take Jake Long with the #1 pick ... especially if he's more of a natural RT. It would be one thing if we were talking about Jonathon Ogden, but we're not.
 
Since we're talking about OT/OLB combos, honestly which would you rather have:

A. Jake Long / Quentin Groves
B. Chris Long / Gosder Cherilus

Immediate impact:
OT- You could plug either one at RT instantly. However, Long would be just as good as a run blocker, most likely better, and a better pass blocker. Plus, you could put Long at LT, and he could be good, which I don't think is possible for Cherilus
OLB- I think both could be rotated in at OLB immediately if we keep both Porter and JT. I feel Long would be a better run stuffer and Groves would be a better pass rusher

Long term:
OT: Both could be stud RT, with Long having a better ceiling I think. But Long could end up being a stud LT, if not immediately, with added coaching and strength. I think Cherilus is limited to the right side
OLB: Both could end up being very good OLB. With Long, you get a tireless worker and leader. But I think the upside for Groves is higher as a pass-rushing OLB

Obviously, I feel the Jake Long / Quentin Groves combo is better both in the immediate future and in the long run
 
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