Is Zach even better than we thought?

[Superself]

Zach is a great player but often times I've seen him get knocked on his aZZ by a fullback or o-linmen and I really don't see that with ray lewis. Also, I think zack has trouble covering with running backs in pass coverage, but makes up for it with his knowledg of the other teams play's and his instinct. As long the d-line gets pressure on the QB zack is very good at taking away the quick pass to the running back but if the running back has time to get into his route zack will struggle. But all but the fastest linebackers will struggle with this so it's not that bad. I think ray lewis is better in pass coverage and with stopping the runner in his tracks. But overall I think zack is right there with him. Who's better? It's a toss up. there is no definite answer, an argument could be made for either one of them

Toss up my aZZ!! Look at the stats I provided above. No other LB comes close to the number of unassisted tackles that Ray gets. You said it yourself that Ray is better. So it isn't a toss up and Ray's performance on the field reflects that.
The only reason people here are saying Zach is right there with him or ::gulp:: better is because Zach is a Dolphin and Ray isn't.

 

[Muck]

Ray Lewis is better than Zach. Zach says so himself. It's not a knock. You can be an elite player without being the absolute best. And Zach is still an elite linebacker IMO.

Ray can do everything Zach does and then some. He's bigger, faster, stronger, a bigger hitter and a better tackler. Players fear running into Lewis. They don't fear Zach. Again, not a knock. Zach is unquestionably well respected. But Ray Lewis strikes fear into the players he hunts.

And Ray runs that team. It's HIS team and no one else's. He is the general. His players do not want to disappoint him. There is no greater leader in the NFL than Ray Lewis.

 

[MikeO]

Ray Lewis is better than Zach. Zach says so himself. It's not a knock. You can be an elite player without being the absolute best. And Zach is still an elite linebacker IMO.

Ray can do everything Zach does and then some. He's bigger, faster, stronger, a bigger hitter and a better tackler. Players fear running into Lewis. They don't fear Zach. Again, not a knock. Zach is unquestionably well respected. But Ray Lewis strikes fear into the players he hunts.

And Ray runs that team. It's HIS team and no one else's. He is the general. His players do not want to disappoint him. There is no greater leader in the NFL than Ray Lewis.

Don't be NEGATIVE! :shakeno: :roflmao:

 

[Kistner10]

This is ridiculous!

For those who say that Zach is better than Ray, either you haven't watch much of Ray playing the game, or you just don't know football as well as you think you do.

Ray Lewis is the #1 LB in the NFL. There is a dropoff after him....Zach falls into that tier along with Urlacher, and how can ANYONE on here mention BEST LBs without speaking of Derrick Brooks!!!

People here talk about intelligence as if Ray is a stupid lughead LB who can't dissect plays or doesn't make consistent play after play. Ray singlehandedly makes MORE game changing plays than Zach Thomas.

LOOK at the following stats!!
In 2003:
Zach has 84 tckls (68 asst)...Ray has 120 tckls (ONLY 41 asst).
For their entire career:
Zach has 741 tckls (451 asst)....Ray has 1150 tckls (ONLY 250 asst!!!).

See a common theme here PEOPLE??? Ray SINGLEHANDEDLY takes down more ball carriers than ZACH does. VERY HUGE DIFFERENCE THERE!
That is the dropoff I'm talking about.
CASE CLOSED!

Lord have mercy on SOME Phin homers who refuse to remove the aqua colored spectacles. :rolleyes2

Those stats aren't right. Zach had over 150 tackles last year and both him and Ray have over 1000 in their career.

 

[yankeehillbilly]

.............And Ray runs that team. It's HIS team and no one else's. He is the general. His players do not want to disappoint him. There is no greater leader in the NFL than Ray Lewis.

And if his players do disappoint him.....well, he will just shoot them

 

[volk]

Ray can do everything Zach does and then some. He's bigger, faster, stronger, a bigger hitter and a better tackler. Players fear running into Lewis. They don't fear Zach. Again, not a knock. Zach is unquestionably well respected. But Ray Lewis strikes fear into the players he hunts.

Zach has never killed or been an accomplice to a murder, either. You say players "fear" Ray Lewis? Little wonder...I would too. The only football Ray Ray should be playing is in the yard with Jamal Lewis in a shiny orange jumpsuit.

You claim that players don't fear Zach? Which players have you heard say that? Coaches certainly fear him. In every interview I have ever heard from an opposing coach about preparing for the Dolphin's D, there are 2 names mentioned: Zach & JT. Not Surtain. Not Madison. Not Seau. Zach and JT are the players that scare opposing head coaches.

It kills me that people are so quick to knock Zach's ability, attributing his success to scheme or OL, but never extend the same criticism to Lewis. Lewis has more solo tackles? Look at the scheme and talent around him...of course he does. Baltimore plays an agressive "pro Ray" D with little talent to upstage him. Zach has more assists because we have more playmakers, yet still Zach is there for the tackle. I have seen Zach given assists instead of tackles when other players have come in before the play was over, even if Zach's contact would have brought the man down anyway.

As any Miami fan will tell you, for the first 7 years of Zach's career, Miami has played the most bland, conservative D in the NFL. Baltimore has played a very aggressive style during that entire time. Still, during this time Zach and Ray have almost identicle numbers. In the second year now of a more aggressive scheme, Zach is clearly outplaying Lewis. Maybe Zach would clearly outshine Lewis if the roles were reversed? The theory that Zach's success is completely dependant upon a huge interior DL has been shot down in flames, and for me, so has Ray Lewis' supposed superiority over anyone else in the league.

If you want to say that Zach and Lewis are comparable in ability, fine. If you think Ray is "clearly" superior to Zach, you have just bought into the Lewis hype machine. Given the choice, I would pick Zach every time. No one plays the game with more heart, will, and intelligence than he does...and he doesn't have a wrap sheet. 'nuff said.

 

[Superself]

Those stats aren't right. Zach had over 150 tackles last year and both him and Ray have over 1000 in their career.

What the heck are you talking about? Goto www.nfl.com and look it up then! You are going to argue with their stats?

My whole point was focusing on the solo tackles. That is where you see Ray is clearly better than Zach.

 

[twanderer]

It really appears to me that some of you don't REALLY read what people are saying. Zach is very good and makes up for his size greatly but I don't think many running plays are designed to avoid him. Yes, a good RB with a lead blocker and zack has problems (although I saw him stop THE BUS 1on1 on a sweep the Steelers had run) but he never gives up on a play. Because of his size he MUST play smarter!! Lewis has naturaly LB size and ability (and then some). Let me ask you this YOU are a running back and you see a 2 holes Lewis in the left one Thomas in the right. Which hole are you taking? No one is knocking Zachs ability. or his tallent or anything. He is just NOT the BEST LB in the league, one of but not THE BEST.

 

[yankeehillbilly]

What the heck are you talking about? Goto www.nfl.com and look it up then! You are going to argue with their stats?

My whole point was focusing on the solo tackles. That is where you see Ray is clearly better than Zach.

Perhaps you should look up the stats again. Zach and Lewis do both have over 1100 tackles in their careers. Lewis does have more solo tackles though. I think that maybe when you were looking up the stats you read Zach's "Solo" column and thought it was his "Total" column.
For the record, Zach has 1192 TOTAL tackles, 741 SOLO, 451 ASST. Lewis has 1150 TOTAL, 900 SOLO, 250 ASST.

 

[Dol-Fan Dupree]

What the heck are you talking about? Goto www.nfl.com and look it up then! You are going to argue with their stats?

My whole point was focusing on the solo tackles. That is where you see Ray is clearly better than Zach.

also that doesn't matter. It is not an official NFL statistic. In fact Ray Lewis can have more solo tackles just because the Ravens idea of what a solo tackle is different than what the Dolphins idea of a solo tackle.

 

[Superself]

Zach has never killed or been an accomplice to a murder, either. You say players "fear" Ray Lewis? Little wonder...I would too. The only football Ray Ray should be playing is in the yard with Jamal Lewis in a shiny orange jumpsuit. .

This was not part of the discussion. Who cares?? :rolleyes2

You claim that players don't fear Zach? Which players have you heard say that? Coaches certainly fear him. In every interview I have ever heard from an opposing coach about preparing for the Dolphin's D, there are 2 names mentioned: Zach & JT. Not Surtain. Not Madison. Not Seau. Zach and JT are the players that scare opposing head coaches.

Where have you been? Everyone mentions Miami having the 2 best cover corners in the league!! EVERYONE ALWAYS make a note of Madison and Surtain!

It kills me that people are so quick to knock Zach's ability, attributing his success to scheme or OL, but never extend the same criticism to Lewis. Lewis has more solo tackles? Look at the scheme and talent around him...of course he does. Baltimore plays an agressive "pro Ray" D with little talent to upstage him. Zach has more assists because we have more playmakers, yet still Zach is there for the tackle. I have seen Zach given assists instead of tackles when other players have come in before the play was over, even if Zach's contact would have brought the man down anyway.

Huh? You act as if Miami doesn't play an aggressive defense. There is a lot of similarity to the Ravens and Miami's defensive schemes. Regardless, Zach is funneled to the ball carrier in this scheme. This scheme is "Pro Zach" all the way. BTW, Ray playing with less playmakers actually is a PLUS for him because he becomes the FOCAL point of the offense!! Solo tackles just cannot be disputed. The margin between Zach and Ray is like an ocean when it comes to that. I'm sure Ray got some assists instead of tackles too...unless you think the stat keepers are Pro Ray too! :rolleyes2

As any Miami fan will tell you, for the first 7 years of Zach's career, Miami has played the most bland, conservative D in the NFL. Baltimore has played a very aggressive style during that entire time. Still, during this time Zach and Ray have almost identicle numbers. In the second year now of a more aggressive scheme, Zach is clearly outplaying Lewis. Maybe Zach would clearly outshine Lewis if the roles were reversed? The theory that Zach's success is completely dependant upon a huge interior DL has been shot down in flames, and for me, so has Ray Lewis' supposed superiority over anyone else in the league.

You haven't made a clear cut case as to why you think Zach is better. You can rah rah all you want here, but unless you are providing some type of definitive facts to back it up, IMO its just hot air. Like Muck has stated, Ray is faster, he is bigger and he hits harder. Dispute that will ya! Ray also plays the run and pass better. Proof is on the field dude.

If you want to say that Zach and Lewis are comparable in ability, fine. If you think Ray is "clearly" superior to Zach, you have just bought into the Lewis hype machine. Given the choice, I would pick Zach every time. No one plays the game with more heart, will, and intelligence than he does...and he doesn't have a wrap sheet. 'nuff said.

Lewis Hype machine? You sound disgruntled here. There is no hype concerning Ray. There ARE stats which when looked at for 2 minutes clearly show he is definitely ahead of his peers.
I'm sure you would take Zach. Because you love your phins. Well I do too, but I wouldn't take Zach if I were trying to be the best and Ray were still available.

BTW, to say that Zach isn't better than Ray isn't a negative thing. No other LB in the game today is better than Ray Lewis.

 

[Superself]

Perhaps you should look up the stats again. Zach and Lewis do both have over 1100 tackles in their careers. Lewis does have more solo tackles though. I think that maybe when you were looking up the stats you read Zach's "Solo" column and thought it was his "Total" column.
For the record, Zach has 1192 TOTAL tackles, 741 SOLO, 451 ASST. Lewis has 1150 TOTAL, 900 SOLO, 250 ASST.

Well DUH!! I DID LABEL them tackles and assists. It is obvious I broke them out.....well I thought it was.

 

[Dol-Fan Dupree]

Well DUH!! I DID LABEL them tackles and assists. It is obvious I broke them out.....well I thought it was.

actually if you look closely it you make it look like Lewis has 1400 tackles total.

 

[Superself]

also that doesn't matter. It is not an official NFL statistic. In fact Ray Lewis can have more solo tackles just because the Ravens idea of what a solo tackle is different than what the Dolphins idea of a solo tackle.

Oh wow, I didn't know each team was allowed to "create" stats from thin air! What are you talking about?? DO you have a link to this conspiracy?

 

[Dphins4me]

Zach has never killed or been an accomplice to a murder, either. You say players "fear" Ray Lewis? Little wonder...I would too. The only football Ray Ray should be playing is in the yard with Jamal Lewis in a shiny orange jumpsuit.

Sounds like you know what went down that night. Where you there?

You claim that players don't fear Zach? Which players have you heard say that?

Watching Trung Canidate run over him last year proved to me that players do not fear him.

It kills me that people are so quick to knock Zach's ability, attributing his success to scheme or OL, but never extend the same criticism to Lewis. Lewis has more solo tackles? Look at the scheme and talent around him...of course he does. Baltimore plays an agressive "pro Ray" D with little talent to upstage him.

Little talent around him? Did you actually post that? Year after year Balt. D is one of the best and since you believe he has little talent around him, then that must mean he is the greatest MLB to ever play the game.

Zach has more assists because we have more playmakers, yet still Zach is there for the tackle.

Good one. :roflmao:

I have seen Zach given assists instead of tackles when other players have come in before the play was over, even if Zach's contact would have brought the man down anyway.

No you haven't.