Is Zach even better than we thought?

[Superself]

actually if you look closely it you make it look like Lewis has 1400 tackles total.

You are correct...thanks!
Ray had 900 solos and 250 assists. However my point still stands that he still has a very large number of solo tackles.

 

[Dol-Fan Dupree]

Oh wow, I didn't know each team was allowed to "create" stats from thin air! What are you talking about?? DO you have a link to this conspiracy?

Conspiracy? more like common knowledge. Tackles are not an official NFL statistic. It has an asterix and everything. It is a statistic that varies from team to team. The Seahawks can give someone an assist that the Giants do not. Unless they changed it this year, however that is the way it has always been for tackles.

 

[JTech194]

Toss up my aZZ!! Look at the stats I provided above. No other LB comes close to the number of unassisted tackles that Ray gets. You said it yourself that Ray is better. So it isn't a toss up and Ray's performance on the field reflects that.
The only reason people here are saying Zach is right there with him or ::gulp:: better is because Zach is a Dolphin and Ray isn't.

Yes I am a dolphin fan but I'm an objective one. No LB has the pure instincts that zach has. including Mr. Lewis. zach is smaller and slower than ray and still makes just as many play's as Ray. zach is also better at reading the play and getting to the ball. so that's why I say it's a toss up, not because I'm a dolphin fan.

 

[Dol-Fan Dupree]

http://www.canoe.ca/Slam030903/nfl_tackle-ap.html

There you go, an article on how tackles are not an NFL statistic

 

[Superself]

http://www.canoe.ca/Slam030903/nfl_tackle-ap.html

There you go, an article on how tackles are not an NFL statistic

The article says that the NFL's website relies on stats crews...not coaches or players. I would think that the margin of error would span the entire NFL...thereby allowing nobody an advantage.

 

[Dol-Fan Dupree]

The article says that the NFL's website relies on stats crews...not coaches or players. I would think that the margin of error would span the entire NFL...thereby allowing nobody an advantage.

I guess if you want to use unofficial statistics to prove your point, go ahead.

 

[yankeehillbilly]

Well DUH!! I DID LABEL them tackles and assists. It is obvious I broke them out.....well I thought it was.

Well DUH!!! You broke them down wrong. The only thing that is obvious in your post is either that you made a mistake or you are intentionaly trying to mislead.

 

[Superself]

I guess if you want to use unofficial statistics to prove your point, go ahead.

Can you provide me with some official stats? I'm using what is available.
I'm not only using stats, but they do back up my assertation that Lewis makes more solo plays than Zach does. I didn't just make that up...I say that from watching him play on the field.

 

[Superself]

Well DUH!!! You broke them down wrong. The only thing that is obvious in your post is either that you made a mistake or you are intentionaly trying to mislead.

Um, I think I owned up to the mistake I made.

I was not trying to mislead. My point about the solo tackles still stands. There is still a huge difference.

 

[Muck]

Zach has never killed or been an accomplice to a murder, either. You say players "fear" Ray Lewis? Little wonder...I would too. The only football Ray Ray should be playing is in the yard with Jamal Lewis in a shiny orange jumpsuit.

This is completely irrelevant. But I'll bite.

First of all, all he did was not snitch. That's it. Far cry from murder. He didn't kill anyone. He went thru the legal system and faced a judge. And you can't say anything to the contrary. To be 100% correct, Ray Lewis was the ONLY person involved in that fiasco who has ANY conviction or stain on his record. Yes, the other parties involved were found not guilty.

Secondly, it's ridiculous to imply that players are thinking of ANYTHING else besides football and the 11 men in front of them while they're in the heat of battle.

You claim that players don't fear Zach? Which players have you heard say that?

Which players have you heard say the contrary?? Honestly, the burden is on you to prove me wrong. And you can't, because Zach is not a big hitter or a devastating tackler. Is there another reason for a ballcarrier to fear a linebacker?? Again, players have tremendous RESPECT for Zach. But they do not fear being hit or tackled by him.

Coaches certainly fear him. In every interview I have ever heard from an opposing coach about preparing for the Dolphin's D, there are 2 names mentioned: Zach & JT. Not Surtain. Not Madison. Not Seau. Zach and JT are the players that scare opposing head coaches.

That's not fear. As I said before, that is RESPECT. And you missed my point. I'm talking about PLAYERS fearing Lewis ON THE FIELD.

**The middle of your post doesn't apply to me.**

If you want to say that Zach and Lewis are comparable in ability, fine. If you think Ray is "clearly" superior to Zach, you have just bought into the Lewis hype machine.

I guess that means that Zach Thomas has bought into the "hype machine" too, because when asked which linebacker was clearly better than him in an interview (that for the life of me I can no longer find), he answered "Ray Lewis".

Zach still has it. He was named 1st Team All-Pro last year. And he's played wonderfully this year. He's one of my all time favorite players. And I think he's the second best MLB in the league behind Lewis. He's lost Timbo and Chester, playing behind three backups who barely reach 300 lbs. And yet he's still making play after play and staying on the field (something Brian Urlacher has yet to do).

But Ray Ray is just blessed physically and as a leader and motivator. And you can't dismiss someone as misled or inventing facts because they think someone on another team is a better player.

 

[MikeO]

This is completely irrelevant. But I'll bite.

First of all, all he did was not snitch. That's it. Far cry from murder. He didn't kill anyone. He went thru the legal system and faced a judge. And you can't say anything to the contrary. To be 100% correct, Ray Lewis was the ONLY person involved in that fiasco who has ANY conviction or stain on his record. Yes, the other parties involved were found not guilty.

Secondly, it's ridiculous to imply that players are thinking of ANYTHING else besides football and the 11 men in front of them while they're in the heat of battle.



Which players have you heard say the contrary?? Honestly, the burden is on you to prove me wrong. And you can't, because Zach is not a big hitter or a devastating tackler. Is there another reason for a ballcarrier to fear a linebacker?? Again, players have tremendous RESPECT for Zach. But they do not fear being hit or tackled by him.



That's not fear. As I said before, that is RESPECT. And you missed my point. I'm talking about PLAYERS fearing Lewis ON THE FIELD.

**The middle of your post doesn't apply to me.**



I guess that means that Zach Thomas has bought into the "hype machine" too, because when asked which linebacker was clearly better than him in an interview (that for the life of me I can no longer find), he answered "Ray Lewis".

Zach still has it. He was named 1st Team All-Pro last year. And he's played wonderfully this year. He's one of my all time favorite players. And I think he's the second best MLB in the league behind Lewis. He's lost Timbo and Chester, playing behind three backups who barely reach 300 lbs. And yet he's still making play after play and staying on the field (something Brian Urlacher has yet to do).

But Ray Ray is just blessed physically and as a leader and motivator. And you can't dismiss someone as misled or inventing facts because they think someone on another team is a better player.

:allhail: :thewave: :victory:

 

[Jimi]

Huh? You act as if Miami doesn't play an aggressive defense. There is a lot of similarity to the Ravens and Miami's defensive schemes. Regardless, Zach is funneled to the ball carrier in this scheme. This scheme is "Pro Zach" all the way. BTW, Ray playing with less playmakers actually is a PLUS for him because he becomes the FOCAL point of the offense!! Solo tackles just cannot be disputed. The margin between Zach and Ray is like an ocean when it comes to that. I'm sure Ray got some assists instead of tackles too...unless you think the stat keepers are Pro Ray too! :rolleyes2





Lewis Hype machine? You sound disgruntled here. There is no hype concerning Ray. There ARE stats which when looked at for 2 minutes clearly show he is definitely ahead of his peers.
I'm sure you would take Zach. Because you love your phins. Well I do too, but I wouldn't take Zach if I were trying to be the best and Ray were still available.

QUOTE]

U cant honestly say the Dolphins defense and ravens comapre. THERE NOT EVEN THE SAME FORM-Ravens 3-4 Phins-4-3. Everyone knos we play one the most conservative bland vanilla defences in the leuage. The ravens flat out attack u.

Stats are very deciveng. For example Pat Kerney has 2x as many sacks as JT, does this make him better?No. I kno its a lil diffrent, but my point is u have to watch games to really see whose better(not saying u dont.). What if Zach took up 3 players ona play by getting them all out of the way, makin it perfectly easy for Seau to gete in there in make the tackle. Zach gets absolutley no credit on the stat sheets, but he did something just as effective.

 

[painnotpleasure]

Does anyone here got the balls to personally tell Zach that he's not one of the best anymore? He's always been overrated and underrated. He's undersized, but he makes up for it in toughness and talent. He's the main guy on our defense. He's been the leader for so long... he's getting older, yeah. He's reached his prime, and at the very end of it perhaps... but I don't think he's passed it quite yet. He may not be the best MLB in the league right now, but he's still one of the best.

 

[dlockz]

There is no real stat advantage to support that one is so much superior than the other. As for being hit by either I'm sure most NFL players don't want to be hit by Ray or Zach. I always hear about Ray's leadership as to assume that Zach does not have Ray's leadership which is all speculative. The only people that know about eithers leadership is the coaches and players on thier teams. Many mistake running your mouth for being a leader and that is not always the case. It's not like either team has been lacking talent on defense in fact Baltimore is loaded with first round picks, our defense has one currently starting for us. Both are great players and no matter how much one can try to favor one over the other in reality they are very even in what they accomplish on field and for one to think that Lewis is much better is basically hype. Solo tackles which are not really that far apart maybe 80 is also not a good determining factor since on a good defense many men will meet at ball carrier and no matter how good you are it comes out as assist.

 

[muscle979]

This year so far Zach is about 30 tackles above Lewis. I know part of that is a result of our D being onthe field so much. But Zach is still one of the best.