Joey or Daunte

[Skeet84]

I think we let Harrington go and Keep Culepepper and find another veteran back-up. Keeping Harrington could prove to be very expensive!

 

[DolfinDave]

They have been effective enough to win 5 of the past 6 and three of those games have been against winning teams. That is more over winning teams than Daunte has had in the past "three" years. Yes, this includes his magical 2004 season.

I really don't want to get into Daunte's past seasons and why those teams didn't win more. I've been over it numerous times and no one ever listens.

You are still missing my point. The offense has not been effective enough, at any point in the year, for us to be a playoff team. And the biggest reason we have won 5 of the last 6 is because our defense has been outstanding. The offense has had to do very little in any of those wins. The highest point total during that streak was against a terrible Detroit defense that is giving up the highest completion % of any team ever. And the Chicago game was one in which JT scored a TD and the defense got numerous turnovers that gave us great field position.

We have given up less than 20 points in all of those wins. Look what happened when they gave up more than 20, we didn't have enough offense to overcome it. The defense can't play that way for an entire season and into the playoffs. You must have balance and we don't have a good enough offense to compliment our defense.

 

[RenoFinFan]

Far cry from Joey right now? Have you been watching the games? Do you see the kind of improved line play that is in very large part due to the switch of McIntosh to LT and Shelton to RG? Daunte's completion % and YPA are still slightly higher than Joey's right now. Objectively speaking, I would say the only difference in their performance is that Joey has had more time to play and that is the only reason he has more yards and TDs. They both have one more INT than TDs. So where exactly is Daunte so far behind Joey in any kind QB play?

The switch of McIntosh to LT and Shelton to RG did not coincide on the same week Joey became the starter. Could you imagine how many sacks Daunte would have taken if he had to play against teams like the Patriots (twice), Bears, Jags, etc...

Both of their projected numbers given they played all 13 games given they both maintained their per game average:

Duante:
6.5 TD passes (in 13 games...wow), 9.75 INT, 9.75 Fumbles, 47.25 sacks / - 487.5 yards (HOLY COW!)

Joey:
17.29 TD passes, 18.72 INT, 4.29 Fumbles, 17 sacks / - 143 yards

I would agree that the OL is playing better as of late, but when you factor in the difference in quality of defenses Daunte played against vs. Joey this may be a wash.

The other aspect that needs to be factored in is Joey's play in the first few games was basically a preseason in which he was trying to get his timing down with the WRs. One only has to look at how the deflected passes for INT all occured during the first three games to understand this. After the bye week it has been a different Harrington. Joey's decision making and accuracy has improved...as evidence by his first three weeks 3 TD passes and 7 INT and then the past six weeks 9 TD passes and 6 INT.

 

[DolfinDave]

The switch of McIntosh to LT and Shelton to RG did not coincide on the same week Joey became the starter. Could you imagine how many sacks Daunte would have taken if he had to play against teams like the Patriots (twice), Bears, Jags, etc...

Both of their projected numbers given they played all 13 games given they both maintained their per game average:

Duante:
6.5 TD passes (in 13 games...wow), 9.75 INT, 9.75 Fumbles, 47.25 sacks / - 487.5 yards (HOLY COW!)

Joey:
17.29 TD passes, 18.72 INT, 4.29 Fumbles, 17 sacks / - 143 yards

I would agree that the OL is playing better as of late, but when you factor in the difference in quality of defenses Daunte played against vs. Joey this may be a wash.

The other aspect that needs to be factored in is Joey's play in the first few games was basically a preseason in which he was trying to get his timing down with the WRs. One only has to look at how the deflected passes for INT all occured during the first three games to understand this. After the bye week it has been a different Harrington. Joey's decision making and accuracy has improved...as evidence by his first three weeks 3 TD passes and 7 INT and then the past six weeks 9 TD passes and 6 INT.

He has improved. But I would make the same arguments for Daunte. He had very limited time in the preason. It was his first real game action in almost a year and he had switched teams. This was all coming off of major knee surgery of which he wasn't fully recovered from. I don't think he should have been starting unless he was fully healed. But you have to give him the same, if not more breaks than we are giving Joey. Joey is fully healthy and is playing behing better oline play and a defense that is playing lights out. So considering all of that, I would call it a wash between the two. I think there should be an open competition in camp.

I would also add the fact that Daunte historically gets off to slow starts. It has been a trend throughout his career. So just like you say for Joey about a slow start, I would say the same for Daunte.

 

[RenoFinFan]

I really don't want to get into Daunte's past seasons and why those teams didn't win more. I've been over it numerous times and no one ever listens.

You are still missing my point. The offense has not been effective enough, at any point in the year, for us to be a playoff team. And the biggest reason we have won 5 of the last 6 is because our defense has been outstanding. The offense has had to do very little in any of those wins. The highest point total during that streak was against a terrible Detroit defense that is giving up the highest completion % of any team ever. And the Chicago game was one in which JT scored a TD and the defense got numerous turnovers that gave us great field position.

We have given up less than 20 points in all of those wins. Look what happened when they gave up more than 20, we didn't have enough offense to overcome it. The defense can't play that way for an entire season and into the playoffs. You must have balance and we don't have a good enough offense to compliment our defense.

I don't blame you for not wanting to discuss Daunte's past bc I wouldn't want to discuss Daunte's past either. When the context in which he put up his stats is understood they aren't as impressive as they appear. I have listened to the arguements but I just don't agree.

I get your point about you not thinking this offense is good enough, but I don't agree with it...5 of the past 7 weeks we have scored over 20 points. Zero in the 4 games Daunte played. Interesting how you don't think this team could make it throught he playoffs, yet this team with Joey at QB demolished both Chicago and NE who are certainly both worthy of being considered SB contenders and would be a shock to no one if they played each other in it.

 

[Regan21286]

I'm leaning a bit towards Harrington solely because it seems he just fits our offense better, is young and still improving, and so far, has helped us beat some pretty tough teams. Culpepper on the other hand seems too reliant on a great OL or his mobility. He's nowhere near any of the better half of QB's in terms of ability to read D's and maintain a pocket presence. But he does have the better physical abilities.

 

[DolfinDave]

I don't blame you for not wanting to discuss Daunte's past bc I wouldn't want to discuss Daunte's past either. When the context in which he put up his stats is understood they aren't as impressive as they appear. I have listened to the arguements but I just don't agree.

I get your point about you not thinking this offense is good enough, but I don't agree with it...5 of the past 7 weeks we have scored over 20 points. Zero in the 4 games Daunte played. Interesting how you don't think this team could make it throught he playoffs, yet this team with Joey at QB demolished both Chicago and NE who are certainly both worthy of being considered SB contenders and would be a shock to no one if they played each other in it.

As far as Daunte's past, his teams were always near the top of the league in points scored. I don't care if you are throwing to Jesus Christ, you have to be a good QB to help your team do that. The big reason they didn't win more games is because their defense was always near the bottom of the league in points allowed. And it didn't matter how much Daunte turned the ball over. Whether he turned it over a lot or a little, they always allowed a lot of points.

Like I keep saying, you can't just look at the point totals and assumed they happened in a vaccum. The defense scored points in the Chicago game. Not to mention Ronnie had his best game of his career. The defesne dominated the Pats. We benefitted a couple of times from roughing penalties that directly led to points. I don't think we would make it through the playoffs unless the defense played as great as they have been lately in every game. Even then it wouldn't be easy and the offense would have to carry some of the load. I just don't think an offense that is 28th in YPA and rushing attempts is well suited to help out even a good defense in the playoffs.

 

[DolfinDave]

I'm leaning a bit towards Harrington solely because it seems he just fits our offense better, is young and still improving, and so far, has helped us beat some pretty tough teams. Culpepper on the other hand seems too reliant on a great OL or his mobility. He's nowhere near any of the better half of QB's in terms of ability to read D's and maintain a pocket presence. But he does have the better physical abilities.

Where do people get this stuff that he can't read defenses? Please give me some evidence that backs this up because I just don't see. I do have evidence that he can read defenses though and that is his outstanding completion %. How do you have a 64 % completion % and not be able to read a defense? I don't get it. His 7.7 YPA is very good as well. Its almost 2 yards more than Joey's 5.8 YPA. That means Daunte is probably not just dumping off a lot of passes to inflate his completion %. So please show me evidence that he can't read defenses because I don't see it.

 

[adamprez2003]

He has improved. But I would make the same arguments for Daunte. He had very limited time in the preason. It was his first real game action in almost a year and he had switched teams. This was all coming off of major knee surgery of which he wasn't fully recovered from. I don't think he should have been starting unless he was fully healed. But you have to give him the same, if not more breaks than we are giving Joey. Joey is fully healthy and is playing behing better oline play and a defense that is playing lights out. So considering all of that, I would call it a wash between the two. I think there should be an open competition in camp.

I would also add the fact that Daunte historically gets off to slow starts. It has been a trend throughout his career. So just like you say for Joey about a slow start, I would say the same for Daunte.

If Daunte is given the starting role he better not get off to a slow start in 2007. After two seasons where we've fallen on our faces in Septemember and October its absolutely imperative that we come out of the gates like gangbusters. If Saban thought this season was rough just imagine what it'll be like if we start 1-3 again. Daunte's career in Miami ends if he starts the season 1-3

 

[DolfinDave]

If Daunte is given the starting role he better not get off to a slow start in 2007. After two seasons where we've fallen on our faces in Septemember and October its absolutely imperative that we come out of the gates like gangbusters. If Saban thought this season was rough just imagine what it'll be like if we start 1-3 again. Daunte's career in Miami ends if he starts the season 1-3

Maybe so. But just because he might get off to a slow start doesn't mean we would be lossing games. The defense here in Miami is far better than those in Minnesota. So if he did get off to a slow start, there is a much better chance that we could still win the games. And even with his slow start this year, its not like we were being blown out of games. We still had a shot to win them.

 

[adamprez2003]

Maybe so. But just because he might get off to a slow start doesn't mean we would be lossing games. The defense here in Miami is far better than those in Minnesota. So if he did get off to a slow start, there is a much better chance that we could still win the games. And even with his slow start this year, its not like we were being blown out of games. We still had a shot to win them.

Yeah if our defense is the same next year at the start of the season it may win us some games but we'll probably be missing half our defensive line so I dont know if we'll have that ferocious defense the first few weeks. Regardless I dont expect to see the same Daunte next year. That was probably the worst he's ever played including his rookie campaign regardless of what the stats said. My point in getting off to a slow start is with Harrington's progress if Daunte does get the starting role he'll be on a short leash because the coaches will know we have an effective game manager behind him. He has to get off to a quick start or he's going to get a quick benching and then his career here is done cause he wont see the field again barring injury

 

[DolfinDave]

Yeah if our defense is the same next year at the start of the season it may win us some games but we'll probably be missing half our defensive line so I dont know if we'll have that ferocious defense the first few weeks. Regardless I dont expect to see the same Daunte next year. That was probably the worst he's ever played including his rookie campaign regardless of what the stats said. My point in getting off to a slow start is with Harrington's progress if Daunte does get the starting role he'll be on a short leash because the coaches will know we have an effective game manager behind him. He has to get off to a quick start or he's going to get a quick benching and then his career here is done cause he wont see the field again barring injury

Yeah you could definitely be right. And it would be nice if whatever QB gets the starting job would start off playing well and continue to play well so we don't have to have these discussions about QB controversies.

 

[Regan21286]

Where do people get this stuff that he can't read defenses? Please give me some evidence that backs this up because I just don't see. I do have evidence that he can read defenses though and that is his outstanding completion %. How do you have a 64 % completion % and not be able to read a defense? I don't get it. His 7.7 YPA is very good as well. Its almost 2 yards more than Joey's 5.8 YPA. That means Daunte is probably not just dumping off a lot of passes to inflate his completion %. So please show me evidence that he can't read defenses because I don't see it.

An outstanding completion % because he takes sacks rather than throw the ball away like most QB's not named Kurt Warner or Brad Johnson do. And his completion % this year is not too far off from Joey's anyways 60.4% to 59.3%. And against some poor pass D's as well.

Maybe so. But just because he might get off to a slow start doesn't mean we would be lossing games. The defense here in Miami is far better than those in Minnesota. So if he did get off to a slow start, there is a much better chance that we could still win the games. And even with his slow start this year, its not like we were being blown out of games. We still had a shot to win them.

We had a shot to win against piss poor teams with questionable pass defenses. That doesn't sound very appealing when we should have more than a shot, we should have a near-guarantee to win if we're expected to be a playoff ready team. Houston, Tennessee (before their recent improvement), and Buffalo aren't exactly New England, Jacksonville, or Chicago.

Some props(?) from Charles Robinson on Harrington:

32. Detroit Lions (2-11) – It's remarkable how players – such as quarterbacks Joey Harrington and Jeff Garcia, and running back Artose Pinner – seem to leave this franchise and suddenly start playing better.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news;_y...cB?slug=cr-rankings121206&prov=yhoo&type=lgns

 

[adamprez2003]

An outstanding completion % because he takes sacks rather than throw the ball away like most QB's not named Kurt Warner or Brad Johnson do. And his completion % this year is not too far off from Joey's anyways 60.4% to 59.3%. And against some poor pass D's as well.



We had a shot to win against piss poor teams with questionable pass defenses. That doesn't sound very appealing when we should have more than a shot, we should have a near-guarantee to win if we're expected to be a playoff ready team. Houston, Tennessee (before their recent improvement), and Buffalo aren't exactly New England, Jacksonville, or Chicago.

Some props(?) from Charles Robinson on Harrington:



http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news;_ylt=AgRtIeO_S3u3aeQr_eUS2mY5nYcB?slug=cr-rankings121206&prov=yhoo&type=lgns

I think it's official - Detroit is football hell. Makes me think that maybe we should look into getting Charles Rogers and Mike Williams. Who knows maybe they dont really suck

 

[DolfinDave]

An outstanding completion % because he takes sacks rather than throw the ball away like most QB's not named Kurt Warner or Brad Johnson do. And his completion % this year is not too far off from Joey's anyways 60.4% to 59.3%. And against some poor pass D's as well.



We had a shot to win against piss poor teams with questionable pass defenses. That doesn't sound very appealing when we should have more than a shot, we should have a near-guarantee if we're expected to be a playoff ready team. Houston, Tennessee (before their recent improvement), and Buffalo aren't exactly New England, Jacksonville, or Chicago.

Yeah lets not cut the guy any slack at all. Lets just ignore the fact that it was his first action in almost a year while playing on a different team while not fully recovered from major knee surgery which also hurt Carson Palmer until he got some time to get used to it. Yeah all of that means nothing. And we should just ignore Joey's equally poor slow start while he was fully healthy and playing behind an oline that had made moves and was playing a lot better than they were while Daunte was in there. Oh, well we can probably just ignore that and blame every single sack on Daunte though since that is what he does. He holds onto the ball so that WRs can actually run downfield and let longer routes develop. That way he can actually throw downfield and gain a lot of yardage instead of dumping every throw off and not even looking to go more than 10 yards downfield. You know what, its not even a question. Joey=starter next year. No debate whatsoever. :rolleyes2