La Canfora says RT is a third tier QB...ouch!

[nyjunc]

He threw 26 passes. His backup threw 12.



you actually think 10-5 makes your case...... Jesus.......

---------- Post added at 02:51 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:50 PM ----------



Am I making that claim?

My mistake, he played but it wasn't a game they were trying to win. Brady got pulled in a 7 pt game late in the game.

My case is not based off the fact he went 10-5 as a starter, it's about going from ZERO losses to FIVE losses against a much weaker sched and MISSING the playoffs. 2009 they face a tougher sched, Brady was coming back off major injury and not normal and they won the division again. a year later they were back to normal and won 14 games.

 

[justdon]

I only say put a good o-line in front of him and we will find out how good he is.

 

[FinfanInBuffalo]

My mistake, he played but it wasn't a game they were trying to win. Brady got pulled in a 7 pt game late in the game.

My case is not based off the fact he went 10-5 as a starter, it's about going from ZERO losses to FIVE losses against a much weaker sched and MISSING the playoffs. 2009 they face a tougher sched, Brady was coming back off major injury and not normal and they won the division again. a year later they were back to normal and won 14 games.

That's an awful lot of caveats necessary for a magical QB. Doesn't change anything. I don't see "schedule difficulty" asterisks next to each of the W/L records anywhere. I'm also pretty sure that there was more roster changes from 2007 to 2010 than just Brady and Cassel.

2008 Cassel-led Patriots: 11-5

2009 Brady-led Patriots: 10-6
2009 Cassel-led Chiefs: 4-12

 

[nyjunc]

That's an awful lot of caveats necessary for a magical QB. Doesn't change anything. I don't see "schedule difficulty" asterisks next to each of the W/L records anywhere. I'm also pretty sure that there was more roster changes from 2007 to 2010 than just Brady and Cassel.

2008 Cassel-led Patriots: 11-5

2009 Brady-led Patriots: 10-6
2009 Cassel-led Chiefs: 4-12

2007 Brady led Pats: 16-0, last min loss in SB
2008 Cassel-led Pats: 10-5 no playoffs
2009 Brady led Pats: 10-6(10-5 in competitive portion), divison champ
2010 Cassel led Chiefs: 10-5, division champs(he won 4 games in 15 starts in 2009 after KC went 2-14 in 2008)


vs. playoff bound teams 2007 vs. 2008:

2007: 6-0, won by an AVERAGE of 20 pts. O scored 39 PPG
2008: 2-4, lost 4 games by an average of 17.8 PPG


as far as the roster:

2007-2008:
QB: Brady- Cassell
RB: Maroney- Maroney
FB: Evans- Evans
WRs: Moss, Welker- Moss, Welker
TE: Watson- Watson
LT: Light-Light
LG: mankins-Mankins
C: Koppen- Koppen
RG: Neal- Neal
RT: Kaczur-Kaczur

 

[royalshank]

WTF? His first pass on that drive was thrown right to a defender, who dropped a sure INT. His next two throws were terrible.

The big assist was the idiotic play calling on the Giants last drive.

First and goal from the 5 with 2:06 left and one NE time out. How the hell do you end up kicking the FG and leaving 1:47 on the clock? Here's how:


1-5-NE 5
(2:06) (Shotgun) 10-E.Manning pass short left to 13-O.Beckham Jr. for 5 yards, TOUCHDOWN. The Replay Official reviewed the pass completion ruling, and the play was REVERSED. (Shotgun) 10-E.Manning pass incomplete short left to 13-O.Beckham Jr. (21-M.Butler).
2-5-NE 5
(2:01) (Shotgun) 10-E.Manning pass incomplete short right to 17-D.Harris.
Two-Minute Warning
3-5-NE 5
(1:56) (Shotgun) 10-E.Manning sacked at NE 11 for -6 yards (90-M.Brown).
Timeout #3 by NE at 01:50.
4-11-NE 11
(1:50) 3-J.Brown 29 yard field goal is GOOD, Center-51-Z.DeOssie, Holder-9-B.Wing.

RUN THE DAMN BALL THREE TIMES, then (if you haven't scored) kick the FG with less than a minute left. Stupid, stupid, stupid.

giants have been losing games they should have won for this reason all year. 3 to be exact. I watched the entire game. They outplayed NE, won the TO battle and should have kept the ball on ground down there. They were trying to get a TD on those first two pass plays but it would have been too quick + they would have need the 2 PT conversion to go up by 7. They would have been better served going run, run, run, FG (if they didn't score on the ground). Would have left NE w less time to work.

 

[Chuck Willie]

This message is for FinfaninBuffalo: want to start off by saying I respect you as a poster here and what you contribute to the site. We've bumped heads a few times regarding Tannehill and my question to you is why do you defend the guy so passionately? Other than flashes of great play, how do you excuse in inconsistency since he's come into the league?

Just from what I gather you seem to get upset when people make fair criticism of Tannehill's game. He is an average QB, up to this point anyway. He has good games, usually followed by piss poor games but more often than not his games are just painfully average QB play. And just one more question. Where do you rank Tannehill as a starting QB?

 

[royalshank]

In the first SB run in the AFC playoffs he led Pitt to 3 wins to get to the SB where he threw 7 TDs, 1 INT and led the O to 29 PPG. That's pretty good, right? Ben on Miami the last 2 years and you are a playoff team w/o a doubt and I'm talking 1st yr/2nd yr Ben not the much better QB he is today.



he never had shi***y years.



Brad was not awful, he was a good QB. he took 3 different franchises to the playoffs. he was never elite(though he made 2 PBs) or anything like that but Ryan Tannehill is nowhere near as good as Brad Johnson was.

On Dilfer, Billick was an offensive guy and won w/ defense so he wanted more #s. He had the perfect QB for that team and he wanted more #s and it bit him.



the same defense that won you the game last week? and has been the primary factor in every one of your wins this season? last year 2nd half the D stunk but 2 years ago they tried to carry you into the playoffs but the O wouldn't cooperate. Your D is has been mostly good the last few years w/ the exception of the 2nd half of last year.

Meh on Brad Johnson. Journeyman back up w the following career numbers:


Brad Johnson
Height: 6-5 Weight: 235 Age: 47
Born: 9/13/1968 Marietta , GA
College: Florida State
Experience: 17 Seasons
TDS
166
INT
122
YDS
29,054
RTG
82.5

Hardly stuff of legend. I think Dilfer was better than Brad.

 

[FinfanInBuffalo]

2007 Brady led Pats: 16-0, last min loss in SB
2008 Cassel-led Pats: 10-5 no playoffs
2009 Brady led Pats: 10-6(10-5 in competitive portion), divison champ
2010 Cassel led Chiefs: 10-5, division champs(he won 4 games in 15 starts in 2009 after KC went 2-14 in 2008)


vs. playoff bound teams 2007 vs. 2008:

2007: 6-0, won by an AVERAGE of 20 pts. O scored 39 PPG
2008: 2-4, lost 4 games by an average of 17.8 PPG


as far as the roster:

2007-2008:
QB: Brady- Cassell
RB: Maroney- Maroney
FB: Evans- Evans
WRs: Moss, Welker- Moss, Welker
TE: Watson- Watson
LT: Light-Light
LG: mankins-Mankins
C: Koppen- Koppen
RG: Neal- Neal
RT: Kaczur-Kaczur

Maroney played 13 games in 2007, 3 in 2008, and 15 in 2009. Maybe he was the difference.

2001 - 2007, 2009 - 2014: 12.2 wins per year
2008 - 11 wins

You're really not making a very strong case.

 

[nyjunc]

Meh on Brad Johnson. Journeyman back up w the following career numbers:


Brad Johnson
Height: 6-5 Weight: 235 Age: 47
Born: 9/13/1968 Marietta , GA
College: Florida State
Experience: 17 Seasons
TDS
166
INT
122
YDS
29,054
RTG
82.5

Hardly stuff of legend. I think Dilfer was better than Brad.

I didn't say there was anything legendary about him but he was a good QB. when you take 3 different teams to the playoffs that's pretty damn good and one of them was Washington in 1999. Prior to 1999 their last playoff app was 1992 and post 1999 their next playoff app would be 2005. Ryan Tannehill can be like a Brad Johnson but he's not close yet.

 

[FinfanInBuffalo]

giants have been losing games they should have won for this reason all year. 3 to be exact. I watched the entire game. They outplayed NE, won the TO battle and should have kept the ball on ground down there. They were trying to get a TD on those first two pass plays but it would have been too quick + they would have need the 2 PT conversion to go up by 7. They would have been better served going run, run, run, FG (if they didn't score on the ground). Would have left NE w less time to work.

100% agree.

 

[nyjunc]

Maroney played 13 games in 2007, 3 in 2008, and 15 in 2009. Maybe he was the difference.

2001 - 2007, 2009 - 2014: 12.2 wins per year
2008 - 11 wins

You're really not making a very strong case.

yes, maybe the guy who never even rushed for 900 yds in a season was the difference maker. You got me.

Maroney 2007: 185-835, 4.5, 6 TDs
Morris 2008: 156-727, 4.7, 7 TDs

average of 12.2 is not better than 11 in one season after they were 16-0? I appreciate your effort but you are like Ryan Tannehill in a big game.

20078 undefeated SB app
2008 10-5 and no playoffs, watching a team that won 1 game in 2008 win the division in 2008. In 7 seasons w/o Brady Belichick has ONE playoff app and one WC playoff win.

 

[FinfanInBuffalo]

This message is for FinfaninBuffalo: want to start off by saying I respect you as a poster here and what you contribute to the site. We've bumped heads a few times regarding Tannehill and my question to you is why do you defend the guy so passionately? Other than flashes of great play, how do you excuse in inconsistency since he's come into the league?

Just from what I gather you seem to get upset when people make fair criticism of Tannehill's game. He is an average QB, up to this point anyway. He has good games, usually followed by piss poor games but more often than not his games are just painfully average QB play. And just one more question. Where do you rank Tannehill as a starting QB?

First of all, thanks for the level headed response even though we disagree.

I have no problem with criticisms of Tannehill when the criticisms point to things he did. I have an issue with the blame game that goes on around here. There are too many examples of people saying Tannehill when they should be saying "the offense". The offense has been very inconsistent. Tannehill, specifically, has been less inconsistent than many of the other players on the offense.

Let's say I agree that the offensive production over the last few years has been average. What does it imply when it can be shown that some critical parts of the offense have been far below average?

You see a QB that is merely average. I see a QB that is over coming a lot of crap to get his offense to average. Last season from weeks 4 - 16, I did not see average QB play.

I rank Tannehill in the 10- 15 range of current starters.

One question for you. What did you see from Tannehill in the two games this season where the pass protection and running game were good and they didn't fall behind?

 

[royalshank]

I didn't say there was anything legendary about him but he was a good QB. when you take 3 different teams to the playoffs that's pretty damn good and one of them was Washington in 1999. Prior to 1999 their last playoff app was 1992 and post 1999 their next playoff app would be 2005. Ryan Tannehill can be like a Brad Johnson but he's not close yet.

i don't know. I mean I don't know what the situations were of those teams he played on but I do recall the year he won a SB w TB he did not have to do much / just game manage. I saw him play "live" when he was w Minny vs Miami in a game that featured Joey Harrington for us and Brad for them. The QB play was pathetic and no one could do anything until Jason Taylor said "**** this" and intercepted a screen for a TD, then on next drive stripped Chester Taylor and ball was returned for TD. Taylor put everyone watching out of their misery.

Brad was really just a good backup in my opinion. I am critical of Tanny. But if these two guys are on the same team at same time I have to believe Ryan is the starter. Brad's career numbers read like a career backup who got to play a few seasons as a starter. Ryan may very well go that way too but to say Ryan is no where near Brad I just don't agree with. I think he's better - but I have a very low opinion of Brad and actually thought Dilfer was the better QB of the two.

 

[nyjunc]

First of all, thanks for the level headed response even though we disagree.

I have no problem with criticisms of Tannehill when the criticisms point to things he did. I have an issue with the blame game that goes on around here. There are too many examples of people saying Tannehill when they should be saying "the offense". The offense has been very inconsistent. Tannehill, specifically, has been less inconsistent than many of the other players on the offense.

Let's say I agree that the offensive production over the last few years has been average. What does it imply when it can be shown that some critical parts of the offense have been far below average?

You see a QB that is merely average. I see a QB that is over coming a lot of crap to get his offense to average. Last season from weeks 4 - 16, I did not see average QB play.

I rank Tannehill in the 10- 15 range of current starters.

One question for you. What did you see from Tannehill in the two games this season where the pass protection and running game were good and they didn't fall behind?

What you are saying is Ryan needs perfection in order to succeed. he needs a RB averaging over 5 YPC, a D shutting everyone down then he can win. a type 10 type doesn't need perfection to win.

i don't know. I mean I don't know what the situations were of those teams he played on but I do recall the year he won a SB w TB he did not have to do much / just game manage. I saw him play "live" when he was w Minny vs Miami in a game that featured Joey Harrington for us and Brad for them. The QB play was pathetic and no one could do anything until Jason Taylor said "**** this" and intercepted a screen for a TD, then on next drive stripped Chester Taylor and ball was returned for TD. Taylor put everyone watching out of their misery.

Brad was really just a good backup in my opinion. I am critical of Tanny. But if these two guys are on the same team at same time I have to believe Ryan is the starter. Brad's career numbers read like a career backup who got to play a few seasons as a starter. Ryan may very well go that way too but to say Ryan is no where near Brad I just don't agree with. I think he's better - but I have a very low opinion of Brad and actually thought Dilfer was the better QB of the two.

He did more than manage the game in their SB run. That TB D may have been better than Baltimore 2000 or Chi '85 but they still needed good QB play to win.

to be fair about that game vs. Joey harrington he was at the end of his career and just holding on. he was 38 yrs old.

If they are on the same team Ryan is his backup. in seasons Brad started at least 5 games he only had 2 losing seasons(7-9 and 6-8) and 7 winning seasons including 4 playoff apps w/ 3 different teams. Again, Brad wasn't great but he was a good starting QB that you could win with. It's TBD if a team can win w/ Ryan.

 

[FinfanInBuffalo]

What you are saying is Ryan needs perfection in order to succeed. he needs a RB averaging over 5 YPC, a D shutting everyone down then he can win. a type 10 type doesn't need perfection to win.

First of all you are implying that those are the only games Tannehill has won. It wasn't perfection. It was very good. When the team is very good Tannehill is elite. When the team is good, Tannehill is very good. When the team is bad, Tannehill is average. When the team is pitiful, Tannehill is bad.