Let's start 2nd rnd targets!

[xXwarXx]

Lee's a killer. He was the best player on the field in the Alabama and Oregon games playoff games. He's bigger and more athletic than L. David - who played at 210lbs as a Junior. Size should not be a concern with Lee.

I'll take a look at those games after I go to the movies.

Lees athletism And ability to close def shows up on tape, where as Cravens lack of athletism shows on tape. But Cravens is much more physical, better insticts all around IMO, and did a lot more. and again, I'm not drafting Cravens in the 1st rnd, and after watching the ND game, probably not the 2nd rnd, although he does a lot of good in that game too.

But the games I watched of lee was a lot of just hanging around in the flats. Is that due to scheme or limitations? I have no clue, but in games where you see the offense get there hands on him, he loses almost everytme.

 

[SF Dolphin Fan]

If that run stuffer next to Suh isn't Jordan Phillips, then Tannenbaum should let the draft experts make the picks. Ronald Darby or Jake Fisher would have been better and safer picks. But hey, he had a gut instinct on that one, like with Quinton Coples. We have so many needs this year, I don't know that we can afford to go DT in rd 2.

I hope Phillips can continue to develop. He showed good things here and there last season, mostly as a pass rusher. I do feel like he has a ways to go, though. Might be good to pair him with a veteran like Paul Solai, who can stuff the run.

Agree, the team probably has too many needs to look DT especially early in the draft. Such a talented group of DT's that you hate not to get one.

 

[SF Dolphin Fan]

I'll take a look at those games after I go to the movies.

Lees athletism And ability to close def shows up on tape, where as Cravens lack of athletism shows on tape. But Cravens is much more physical, better insticts all around IMO, and did a lot more. and again, I'm not drafting Cravens in the 1st rnd, and after watching the ND game, probably not the 2nd rnd, although he does a lot of good in that game too.

But the games I watched of lee was a lot of just hanging around in the flats. Is that due to scheme or limitations? I have no clue, but in games where you see the offense get there hands on him, he loses almost everytme.

Good debate on Lee. Definitely see him as one of Miami's first round targets. I'd say (in no order) Apple, Alexander, Dodd, Lee, Conklin are most likely targets at #13.

Lee seems to me like someone who could be a really good pass rusher if turned loose to do that. Obviously, he can cover in the pass game. I think he's biggest issue is taking on blockers.

 

[PSU Cane]

I'll take a look at those games after I go to the movies.

Lees athletism And ability to close def shows up on tape, where as Cravens lack of athletism shows on tape. But Cravens is much more physical, better insticts all around IMO, and did a lot more. and again, I'm not drafting Cravens in the 1st rnd, and after watching the ND game, probably not the 2nd rnd, although he does a lot of good in that game too.

But the games I watched of lee was a lot of just hanging around in the flats. Is that due to scheme or limitations? I have no clue, but in games where you see the offense get there hands on him, he loses almost everytme.

I just got done watching the Bama game. He was in the same position most of the time, so just about all of his splash plays were in the passing game. He made 2 plays in the run game, but both were unblocked run blitzes. He doesn't handle the power run game well at all, but is great in space. He stopped Amari for no gain on a WR bubble screen, fought through a block on another screen (i think it was White), sacked Sims on delayed blitzes twice (one outside, one inside) and pressured him into an incompletion another time. He did take a bad angle on a Henry screen that gave up big yards and missed a tackle on a Henry sweep early in the game (another bad angle) but other than that his tackling was good.

One thing to remember....he was only a redshirt freshman in this game.

What i saw in this game is the exact same i saw this year against ND and Michigan State. Lee is a fantastic athlete, very good in space, and a great blitzer. He just struggles in the run game, struggles to "see it" and react, struggles to get through garbage in the box and doesn't get off blocks well. He doesn't always chase full speed either, which is not uncommon but something i like to see more. His game is blitzing, covering and tackling in space. Young kid. Physical potential is there.

 

[hoops]

Sean davis should definitely be a miami target...a lot to like there...really like how he closes with quick acceleration to the man/ball...great size for the boundary too and plays with an edge...i struggle to see how that gets out of the top 75

Darron lee is overdrafted in the top 15 cause hes more athlete than instincts at lb...most of what you see there is an athlete playing lb...needs time for the instinctual side of things to click...the athlete will get drafted top 25 but thats an awful lot of ryan shazier athleticism although not quite as explosive in the lower half with similar feel for lb...id give the edge to lee instinctually but its nothing like lavonte david coming out...closest thing to lavonte david in terms of instincts for a space lb is myles jack but in a bigger package...and thus should and will be drafted higher accordingly

 

[j-off-her-doll]

Sean davis should definitely be a miami target...a lot to like there...really like how he closes with quick acceleration on the ball...

Darron lee is overdrafted in the top 15 cause hes more athlete than instincts at lb...most of what you see there is an athlete playing lb...needs time for the instinctual side of things to click...the athlete will get drafted top 25 but thats an awful lot of ryan shazier athleticism although not quite as explosive in the lower half with similar feel for lb...id give the edge to lee instinctually but its nothing like lavonte david coming out...closing thing to lavonte david in terms of i stincts for a space lb is myles jack but in a bigger package...

Disagree. Lee navigates blocks very similar to David, but he's a MUCH better athlete. I don't need to remind you that you viewed Shazier as a 2nd RD prospect. Both Shazier and Lee converted to LB at OSU. There aren't many great athletes in this draft, and there are even fewer quality players who are quality athletes. Lee converted from QB/S (3-star recruit as a S) to LB. He's still experiencing some growing pains, but if needed, he could easily add 10lbs to that frame. As you mentioned, he has better LB instincts than Shazier did coming out of OSU - which makes sense given that S play is more translatable to LB than DE play would be. Shazier, though, has great instincts around the LOS, shooting gaps. Again, it makes sense, because he transitioned from DE. Shazier is now one of the top LB's in the NFL, after being slowed by injuries as a rookie, and weight is not a concern for him. I expect a similar path for Lee, but I think his game is a little more polished, and if he stays healthy, he should develop a little quicker than Shazier did. In a weak class, I'll take Darron Lee in the top-15 all day.

But, yeah, Davis looks like a great fit in Miami.

 

[hoops]

Actually i didnt have shazier on my board cause he was completely lost on tape as a lb...and we were looking for a 43 mike not a wolb or a 34 wilb

Shazier is not one of the top lbs in the nfl...you may want to try and pass that one off since you were so high on him but thats just not the case...he has gotten better but the instincts for an off the los lb as a come forward all the time converted de are taking baby steps

He still shows no inside read and diag...

 

[j-off-her-doll]

Actually i didnt have shazier on my board cause he was completely lost on tape as a lb...and we were looking for a 43 mike not a wolb or a 34 wilb

Shazier is not one of the top lbs in the nfl...you may want to try and pass that one off since you were so high on him but thats just not the case...he has gotten better but the instincts for an off the los lb as a come forward all the time converted de are taking baby steps

He still shows no inside read and diag...

Didn't say he's perfect, but if you had a draft of all the Off LB's in the NFL, Shazier would go in the top 5. He makes big plays, and he's ascending. Outside of the Bengals' meltdown, Shazier was the MVP of the Cinci game.

 

[hoops]

To be a top level lb hes gonna have to show inside read and diag...until he does hes gonna always get murdered at the 2nd level between the tackles by linemen

Most of his splash plays are either primary assignment or the result of the athlete which is top notch...once he sees it though he attacks it especially if its front of him....coverage wise he still doesnt have much feel for carrying it...

Inside read and diag and coverage two very big opportunities for improvement

Anyways i like lee more in terms of feel for lb coming out but i still wouldnt draft him with a top 20 pick cause hes not instinctual enough...i loved lavonte david coming out that was a different level instincts wise

 

[PSU Cane]

Disagree. Lee navigates blocks very similar to David, but he's a MUCH better athlete. I don't need to remind you that you viewed Shazier as a 2nd RD prospect. Both Shazier and Lee converted to LB at OSU. There aren't many great athletes in this draft, and there are even fewer quality players who are quality athletes. Lee converted from QB/S (3-star recruit as a S) to LB. He's still experiencing some growing pains, but if needed, he could easily add 10lbs to that frame. As you mentioned, he has better LB instincts than Shazier did coming out of OSU - which makes sense given that S play is more translatable to LB than DE play would be. Shazier, though, has great instincts around the LOS, shooting gaps. Again, it makes sense, because he transitioned from DE. Shazier is now one of the top LB's in the NFL, after being slowed by injuries as a rookie, and weight is not a concern for him. I expect a similar path for Lee, but I think his game is a little more polished, and if he stays healthy, he should develop a little quicker than Shazier did. In a weak class, I'll take Darron Lee in the top-15 all day.

But, yeah, Davis looks like a great fit in Miami.

I think navigating blocks is one of Lee's biggest weaknesses. David struggled at Nebraska with it as well, but his was more to do with getting off blocks when the lineman was engaged. David had a better nose for the ball amongst the garbage and was better at evading blocks and getting to the hole. I don't see that as much with Lee yet unless he run blizes, which makes sense as you eluded to him being a safety. He still plays like one.

I still think Lee is a 1st round talent on potential alone in a LB class lacking speed. He's young, twitchy, and fits today's passing style offenses. However, if you plan on playing him 3 downs from Day 1, you better surround him with some stud run stuffers.

 

[j-off-her-doll]

Hoops, I'm curious as to which 20 players you'd draft over Lee.

 

[hoops]

Hoops, I'm curious as to which 20 players you'd draft over Lee.

I dont do grades according to whats in the class i do them according to what i think validates a top 20 pick or a 1st round grade regardless of the class...certain things i consider requirements for each round grade in any class

What that means is that i dont necessarily end up with 32 1st round grades or any round for that matter...i dont even know how many 1st round grades i have i just know who i think validates them

I would give lee a 1st round grade on athleticism and upside and talent but it would be a late one...and it would be as a wolb in a 43 or a wilb in a 34...at 232 lbs and the frame i see i would project 43 the best fit

We live in an age where 2 down lbs even get drafted top 50 and i would value him above that even if i dont carry top 2 round grades for 2 down lbs very often

 

[xXwarXx]

I just got done watching the Bama game. He was in the same position most of the time, so just about all of his splash plays were in the passing game. He made 2 plays in the run game, but both were unblocked run blitzes. He doesn't handle the power run game well at all, but is great in space. He stopped Amari for no gain on a WR bubble screen, fought through a block on another screen (i think it was White), sacked Sims on delayed blitzes twice (one outside, one inside) and pressured him into an incompletion another time. He did take a bad angle on a Henry screen that gave up big yards and missed a tackle on a Henry sweep early in the game (another bad angle) but other than that his tackling was good.

One thing to remember....he was only a redshirt freshman in this game.

What i saw in this game is the exact same i saw this year against ND and Michigan State. Lee is a fantastic athlete, very good in space, and a great blitzer. He just struggles in the run game, struggles to "see it" and react, struggles to get through garbage in the box and doesn't get off blocks well. He doesn't always chase full speed either, which is not uncommon but something i like to see more. His game is blitzing, covering and tackling in space. Young kid. Physical potential is there.

good breakdown I would agree with everything here.

Which is why I'm not as high on him as a lot of other people are, if I'm drafting a linebacker in the 1st round I want to see that violent streak in them at the college level. I don't think you can develop that.

Reminds me of Bobby Carpenter.

 

[xXwarXx]

Disagree. Lee navigates blocks very similar to David, but he's a MUCH better athlete. I don't need to remind you that you viewed Shazier as a 2nd RD prospect. Both Shazier and Lee converted to LB at OSU. There aren't many great athletes in this draft, and there are even fewer quality players who are quality athletes. Lee converted from QB/S (3-star recruit as a S) to LB. He's still experiencing some growing pains, but if needed, he could easily add 10lbs to that frame. As you mentioned, he has better LB instincts than Shazier did coming out of OSU - which makes sense given that S play is more translatable to LB than DE play would be. Shazier, though, has great instincts around the LOS, shooting gaps. Again, it makes sense, because he transitioned from DE. Shazier is now one of the top LB's in the NFL, after being slowed by injuries as a rookie, and weight is not a concern for him. I expect a similar path for Lee, but I think his game is a little more polished, and if he stays healthy, he should develop a little quicker than Shazier did. In a weak class, I'll take Darron Lee in the top-15 all day.

But, yeah, Davis looks like a great fit in Miami.

I wasn't High on Shazier and he's turned into one heck of a pro.

But at the colllege level he was a violent player, you don't see that Lee IMO.

---------- Post added at 07:40 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:39 PM ----------

Disagree. Lee navigates blocks very similar to David, but he's a MUCH better athlete. I don't need to remind you that you viewed Shazier as a 2nd RD prospect. Both Shazier and Lee converted to LB at OSU. There aren't many great athletes in this draft, and there are even fewer quality players who are quality athletes. Lee converted from QB/S (3-star recruit as a S) to LB. He's still experiencing some growing pains, but if needed, he could easily add 10lbs to that frame. As you mentioned, he has better LB instincts than Shazier did coming out of OSU - which makes sense given that S play is more translatable to LB than DE play would be. Shazier, though, has great instincts around the LOS, shooting gaps. Again, it makes sense, because he transitioned from DE. Shazier is now one of the top LB's in the NFL, after being slowed by injuries as a rookie, and weight is not a concern for him. I expect a similar path for Lee, but I think his game is a little more polished, and if he stays healthy, he should develop a little quicker than Shazier did. In a weak class, I'll take Darron Lee in the top-15 all day.

But, yeah, Davis looks like a great fit in Miami.

I wasn't High on Shazier and he's turned into one heck of a pro.

But at the colllege level he was a violent player, you don't see that Lee IMO.

 

[Awsi Dooger]

For the second round I'd be very tempted by Jason Spriggs. I've mentioned him a couple of times already, although I called him the "Indiana left tackle" because I couldn't remember his name.

Spriggs looks like a guy who can play left tackle for a long time in this league. Great technique and understated athleticism. He reminds me of guys the Dolphins had in their '70s heyday. Smart resourceful player.

***

Otherwise I see there is plenty of debate regarding Lee and Shazier. I've struggled with the same comparisons lately, although I haven't been to this site in a long time while working on my betting systems and golf game.

I go back and forth on Lee. He makes plays. That should never be downgraded. Smallish downhill guys like that fit the game now, IMO. But I thought Shazier's instincts were better coming out of college. Or at least my projections of Shazier's instincts toward the NFL were higher. Lee often freezes for a split second while Shazier had already committed, and was normally correct.

Overall I love the Buckeye players and wouldn't mind drafting a flock of them. Lee and Apple would be among my considerations for #13 along with Nkemdiche.

Mostly while watching that Ohio State pro day I was thinking there should be a second event going on somewhere in Columbus...with JT Barrett charged with some type of crime. I don't know how he is allowed to roam free after managing only 46 passing yards and 2.9 YPA against an inept Michigan State pass defense. Even if Barrett has a good season next year -- which is likely -- it still doesn't threaten to balance the fact that he nearly singlehandedly prevented the most talented college team in years from reaching a Final Four berth that should have been a mere formality.

Tom Luginbill described it well, that Cardale Jones "may not be an every down quarterback, but he's a big down quarterback." Exactly. And that's where pivotal games are decided. No chance Jones and his 2015 8.3 YPA goes through an entire game against that pathetic Spartan pass defense without making at least one or two huge point-producing plays for the Buckeyes.