Miami tried to get TWO 2nd round picks for Myles Jack & Xavien Howard. | Page 4 | FinHeaven - Miami Dolphins Forums

Miami tried to get TWO 2nd round picks for Myles Jack & Xavien Howard.

From a measurables standpoint, there really isn't a significant difference between Apple and Howard. I really never understood all the hype for Apple. Howard had as good (if not better) stats than Apple.
With respect to Jack; if the FO really coveted him, they should have offered up their 2017 1st rounder. That's what it cost Jimmy Johnson to jump back into the early second round to pick Patrick Surtain.

Apple's tape is better than Howard's. You watch the video on both and ask yourself who is gonna be ready to start in 4 months against top league receivers and I'd like to know what from Howard tape would suggest him. It's going to be a baptism of fire and Joseph will earn his corn if we can be stout on the boundaries.

Howard might be a fairly prototypical press CB (though a little slow) from a physical pov, but that doesn't automatically translate to him holding his own. He needs to make a big jump to be a competent pro CB and that jump won't happen in the offseason. Just not realistic. I'm willing it to happen but the college gametime says things will get worse before better.
 
Apple's tape is better than Howard's. You watch the video on both and ask yourself who is gonna be ready to start in 4 months against top league receivers and I'd like to know what from Howard tape would suggest him. It's going to be a baptism of fire and Joseph will earn his corn if we can be stout on the boundaries.

Howard might be a fairly prototypical press CB (though a little slow) from a physical pov, but that doesn't automatically translate to him holding his own. He needs to make a big jump to be a competent pro CB and that jump won't happen in the offseason. Just not realistic. I'm willing it to happen but the college gametime says things will get worse before better.

well I'm glad someone sees it

matching foot work and a inside or outside redirect in press is a big damn deal and howards not even in apples zip code in that aspect and while he may have run well at a clock induced pro day time he doesn't carry vertical coverage effortlessly from a flip the hips and transition aspect or a top end speed one

he gets stacked...bad news when you get stacked...and ones 2 years younger and on totally different level already

if joseph makes this into a above average boundary corner put that man in canton...odds are heavily stacked against it

if I'm an oc watching that kids college tape my gameplans gonna be torch it whenever Miami leaves it exposed

there needs to be a ton of one on one work or special attention given to howard by joseph cause there's a ton of needs to clean up to be done there...more than I'd be comfortable projecting down the road but I also didn't meet with the kid and see how much football and getting better matters to him so there's that

not that a meeting like that would change anything for me
 
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Who was the pic if tunsil wasn't there

If Tunsil wasn't there, my guess is we would have drafted Apple (if the Giants tooks Conklin), or Conklin (if Apple was gone but he remained, based on what i heard about Gase banging the table for him).

But then again, who knows. Maybe Tampa takes Apple and Vern falls. It's amazing how the entire draft can change bc of one player or one team throwing a curveball.
 
Howard plays more of a flat footed press technique..there is no half backwards bucket step press technique here...its flat footed

Im more a fan of the half bucket provided the athlete can redirect and match the footwork and stay on balance...apple is excellent at all of that

I think one thing i may have misjudged a little initially not picking up on technique played is howard transitions pretty well and has good feet...better feet and transition than i expected now that ive figured out the flat foot technique

But i also see a lack of long speed and acceleration to where if he whiffs at the los and gets stacked playing that flat footed technique which lends itself to the wr stacking you if your feet arent active enough and your weight gets out over your toes hes never gonna catch up in the vertical stem vs nfl athletes...hes gonna trail and trail significantly vs nfl top shelf boundary talents

i dont know if miami will teach the half backwards bucket but its far and away my preference especially to keep from being stacked when you dont have top shelf speed

I also see a little bit of lack of interest in the ball as a tackler but that will probably remedy itself at the next level...he waits for the ball to come to him instead of attacking it and cutting down yardage as a tackler in the run game...maybe hes just saving himself...id be barking at him in the position meetings film room to get in the damn game physically

From a height weight arm length aspect that looks the part when he lines up at the los in press...
 
Who was the pic if tunsil wasn't there




...may get torched for this but...if the front office has the patience/foresight...I take Jack at #13...still go CB early 2nd round...then trade back up in the 2nd round trade up for an O-linemen...idk...just really wanted Jack
 
Jack would have been #13 if Tunsil wasn't there....apple or no apple
 
If we were indeed comfortable enough with Jack's medical that we would have drafted him at 13, we should have been going ape **** to snag him at the top of round 2. So much for BPA. Maybe we could have gotten up to 36 using a 2016 3rd, 2017 2nd and 2017 3rd. Not saying we shoulda, given the risk, but if they trusted his knee, they could have figured something out.
 
^^ I'll add that Tunsil, Jack and Howard would have been an epic draft. I'm not saying Howard wasn't worth what we gave up for him, but if we were taking Jack in round 1, he was clearly worth more than Howard + a 5th rounder to us. We'd be storming Davie if we took Howard at or near 13.


My hindsight draft:

13: Tunsil
36: Jack (using 42 + 4th + 2017 5th & change)
38?: Howard (using 3rd, 5th, 2017 2nd)
 
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I'm sure Tunsil falling to us had the FO re-imagining the entire draft. I give them points for picking him. Honestly, I was dreading that we would pick Jack instead of a more useful player. There are teams in the NFL that can afford to gamble and may be rewarded handsomely for it. Unfortunately this organization isn't in the position where we can afford to waste our only second rounder. It seems more often than not this team is drafting damaged goods that end up physically unable to perform in their rookie year and end up letting that mediocrity define their career. And none of the guys we drafted had as serious of ailment as Jack.
 
Starting CB's come at a premium. Typically, you don't get a ready for prime time press CB in round 3. Usually it's a small group that runs out early in round 2. That was the case this year with Howard and Fuller ending the group. I'm very happy we got Howard, because the drop off after Howard was quite large.

You can't criticize the Howard pick and praise the Tunsil pick. The 1st rounder required ensuring you get Howard in the 2nd, so factor that into your 1st round BPA analysis.

Myles Jack's value changed when teams became more confident in his knee status. Since we are the team that typically lets our 1st rounders go after the first contract anyway, I don't know why we were ever scared off of Myles Jack. We should have been able to trade up from the 2nd round into the 1st fairly cheaply and get Jack ... but we wouldn't have a starting CB.
 
Starting CB's come at a premium. Typically, you don't get a ready for prime time press CB in round 3. Usually it's a small group that runs out early in round 2. That was the case this year with Howard and Fuller ending the group. I'm very happy we got Howard, because the drop off after Howard was quite large.

You can't criticize the Howard pick and praise the Tunsil pick. The 1st rounder required ensuring you get Howard in the 2nd, so factor that into your 1st round BPA analysis.

Myles Jack's value changed when teams became more confident in his knee status. Since we are the team that typically lets our 1st rounders go after the first contract anyway, I don't know why we were ever scared off of Myles Jack. We should have been able to trade up from the 2nd round into the 1st fairly cheaply and get Jack ... but we wouldn't have a starting CB.

Well, I personally would have taken Davis in Round 2. Davis also has a lot of bad tape at corner, but most of that is at off-man. Either way, a pretty average looking corner would be starting in the NFL against the Seahawks.

In Howard's case, he looks good at the LOS and is even more physical at the jam than Apple or any of the other press CBs. But as Hoops said, he loses contain at the stem and he doesn't have any burst to make up the lost steps. The deeper it goes, the bigger the separation. Howard got burned deep a lot. But when you consider how few college QBs have big arms and deep accuracy, the number could have been much higher - and will be higher in the pros. There are a ton of deep drops and overthrows where Howard was beaten, but they won't show in the stats. Russell Wilson would feast on that in Week 1.

What Baylor seemed to do is have him hand off a lot of plays to the high safety after the first 10-15yds and Howard would come back downhill to cover the slot or Z guy. I can only assume they were rolling safety help over to him because of a fear of him getting beaten deep. I thought Howard was very quick/eager to check his player off to the safety and this resulted in some miscommunications and big concessions (good example in WVU game).

I also saw the coaches on the sideline redirect him pre-snap - looked a few times like he didn't know his assignment.

There are biggish issues and little issues, but it all adds up to him being a longshot to hold down his side of the field in early season. Like we've all said, the choices weren't huge and we had to take someone (or sign one of the lower grade FAs still out there and go BPA in Round 2). Either way, the road was likely to be bumpy. For me, the road with Howard looks like it could be particularly bumpy early on. Maxwell has a lot of similar issues, so if the Seattle scheme could mask them a little, may Joseph's can too. Just a shame we don't have Sherman on the other boundary and we have to help two CBs out deep.
 
seattle runs a ton of 4 vertical concepts to get one on one looks with no help predicated on distance to the sticks...howards college tape screams every time I get that look go after it...he's beaten over the top and stacked WAY too much

the Oklahoma tape shows a corner that there is absolutely no fear of going after...the wvu one was pretty average but I don't see anything threatening out there either on the perimeter...the nc tape shows what he will face virtually every week on the boundary as in top shelf tools athletes in that much space and that tape is a serious red flag cause it's flat not acceptable

cover 2 sure it will work but if we don't stop the run and don't get teams behind the sticks every time we line up in single high and press (which there will be plenty of) I'm looking off the deep safety in the drop and taking deep shots vertical here...there's no resistance and no reason to be deterred...theres also while the balls in flight late separation to be had vs this corner....he better really use that body to reroute...that vertical stem play won't cut it

not to mention we aren't gonna field a lot of range at safety to try and make up for it
 
Jack would have been #13 if Tunsil wasn't there....apple or no apple

nah...they wouldn't have waited til round 2 to try and go up and get jack if he was in play at 13 and they were top 10 worthy pick comfortable with the medical

jack went in the range where the medical risk offset the talent on the board
 
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