Not A Good Draft

killafinz

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It's okay to not be in love with the draft, but I think it's quite clear to see the vision Grier and Flores have for the team.

Also, I hope this makes sense, but in past years we drafted guys strictly based on what their numbers looked like and how we projected they'd fit into a scheme rather than actually drafting them for what they were. That's how you end up drafting guys like Dallas Thomas, Billy Turner, and Jamil Douglas on the OL. All guys who look good, but also are seen as more athletic OL. What was the issue with all of them though? They had awful technique, no balance, and lacked awareness. All were OL that needed to built from the ground up and we used pretty high draft capital on them. Deiter and Prince are far from perfect prospects (and I've talked about Prince's Big 10 season struggles) but both do have qualities that you want. Both were classic Patriot like OL to draft. Both are maulers in the run game already and both are smart blockers.

A lot of people are hating on Van Ginkel. I get that too as arguably more prolific players were available, but remember. It's about what you will be asked to do. Van Ginkel already played the position he would be asked to play for us in Flores's defense in Jim Leonard's defense. AVG was asked to do a lot of stunt blitzes, read delayed blitzes, and adjust to plays based on looks. He's also a fairly decent athlete. So this was a case where you would not need to teach someone from the ground up.

I'm actually pretty shocked we put more focus on offense than defense, but each pick on offense (whether it works out or not) fits a new identity on offense. It's more about being smash mouth, more about being smart. More about knowing your assignment. In a perfect world Deiter, Prince, Cox, Gaskin, and even Rosen will all be seen as steals and become starters but that is unlikely to happen... but all of them should help with changing the culture in those meeting rooms. Less finesse more hitting, less flash more grit. It's a back to basic draft. Which can suck, but sometimes you need.

Now as for Rosen, based on how the trade worked out it's like we drafted a 2nd round QB. We have no commitment to him. He does have all the tools to be great. And while I think the concerns about his character are greatly overblown, he does have a big ego so hopefully he keeps that in check. If he sucks no big deal, but there's also the chance he could take a jump like Jared Goff and Mitch Trubisky took (both solid QBs but not on the talent level of Rosen) in year 2 when they had a real offensive staff calling plays.

Also on Rosen, I find it funny how Rosen had similar stats to Josh Allen last year (and arguably a bit better) but Allen is viewed by some people as a breakout star next year.
Great post and completely agree, the more i watch on this kid the more i like him. I dont think there is one sucessful qb in this league that doesnt have a big ego. Look at the elites rodgers, brees, brady, and wilson. They all drip swagger and ego, they just know how to apply it in a positive way.
 

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Weird draft. IMHO, we did very well for most of the draft, stockpiling talent for next year with the trade downs, getting the right players with the first two picks (the most important picks) Wilkins and Deiter, but not sure we drafted any more starters. I'm not as optimistic about Rosen as most, so while it is a trade, he could become a 3rd starter and the most important piece to this draft, and I don't want to minimize what the Grier/McKenzie/Flores & the front office did, they masterfully got an extra 2nd next year by trading down, then traded for a young QB who has already been paid his bonus for a late 2nd, so that was good bargaining.

Ultimately, Rosen's success or failure will determine this entire draft. If he succeeds, we crushed it. If he doesn't … well then this becomes a subpar draft where we're rebuilding and only got 2 starters. (plus a 2nd next year).

But in the end, we needed more talent. I'm hopeful someone like Van Ginkel can work but he isn't big enough, not quite fast enough, doesn't shed blockers, needs help (scheme) to get to the QB, and looks more like a special teamer than a starting off-ball LB, and probably not an edge rusher.

Isaiah Prince is a project pure and simple. Big mauling OT with good potential and length, but he gets stood up too much, spends too much time on the ground, isn't a great pass protector, doesn't finish his blocks, and often just stops blocking before the play is finished. In short, he's a long ways from fulfilling that potential, and he looks like a guy that will be very hard to re-sign if he ever reaches that potential, and offers little until he does.

The 7th rounders never have a high chance of success, and these guys are no different, a role playing FB we could have gotten as an UDFA, and a scatback. The real meat of this draft, rounds 3-5, could have all produced starters, but we maneuvered ourselves out of most of those picks, and didn't take advantage of that value. Now, it's all riding on how Rosen works out or doesn't work out.
I think you hit it on the nose. If Rosen is the answer, Miami is in great shape moving forward. I give the front office credit for setting up the 2020 draft as well, with multiple picks in round 2, possibly round 3 (James), round four and I believe round 7.

My biggest disappointment coming out of this draft was not capitalizing enough on the defensive end talent. Love the Wilkins pick. Love everything about this kid. But trading for Rosen did cost Miami a chance at another defensive lineman. Again, if Rosen is the guy we'll forget about who we could have had instead.
 

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I think Deiter is going to prove a good solid LG. Kilgore was fine when he was healthy, so if he is our starting center we shouldn't be too weak there. Jesse Davis should do better at RT than RG, so while not ideal, he is serviceable. The guard that the OL coach brought from Jacksonville looks like he has some ability, so he may be able to plug our hole at RG. Not ideal, but I think our OL will be improved, and definitely better than Arizona's last year. Fingers crossed.
I believe those are the starters. Tunsil LT, Deiter LG, Kilgore C, Reed RG, Davis RT. I do think Asiata could have more value with this staff and could challenge at RG. Prince is a good bet to move inside to guard. I believe this is one area where we'll see a lot of improvement due to the new coaching staff.
 

killafinz

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I will be shocked if prince doesnt start at RT I think he really has the tools and this staff will maximise those skills.
 

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It's okay to not be in love with the draft, but I think it's quite clear to see the vision Grier and Flores have for the team.

Also, I hope this makes sense, but in past years we drafted guys strictly based on what their numbers looked like and how we projected they'd fit into a scheme rather than actually drafting them for what they were. That's how you end up drafting guys like Dallas Thomas, Billy Turner, and Jamil Douglas on the OL. All guys who look good, but also are seen as more athletic OL. What was the issue with all of them though? They had awful technique, no balance, and lacked awareness. All were OL that needed to built from the ground up and we used pretty high draft capital on them. Deiter and Prince are far from perfect prospects (and I've talked about Prince's Big 10 season struggles) but both do have qualities that you want. Both were classic Patriot like OL to draft. Both are maulers in the run game already and both are smart blockers.

A lot of people are hating on Van Ginkel. I get that too as arguably more prolific players were available, but remember. It's about what you will be asked to do. Van Ginkel already played the position he would be asked to play for us in Flores's defense in Jim Leonard's defense. AVG was asked to do a lot of stunt blitzes, read delayed blitzes, and adjust to plays based on looks. He's also a fairly decent athlete. So this was a case where you would not need to teach someone from the ground up.

I'm actually pretty shocked we put more focus on offense than defense, but each pick on offense (whether it works out or not) fits a new identity on offense. It's more about being smash mouth, more about being smart. More about knowing your assignment. In a perfect world Deiter, Prince, Cox, Gaskin, and even Rosen will all be seen as steals and become starters but that is unlikely to happen... but all of them should help with changing the culture in those meeting rooms. Less finesse more hitting, less flash more grit. It's a back to basic draft. Which can suck, but sometimes you need.

Now as for Rosen, based on how the trade worked out it's like we drafted a 2nd round QB. We have no commitment to him. He does have all the tools to be great. And while I think the concerns about his character are greatly overblown, he does have a big ego so hopefully he keeps that in check. If he sucks no big deal, but there's also the chance he could take a jump like Jared Goff and Mitch Trubisky took (both solid QBs but not on the talent level of Rosen) in year 2 when they had a real offensive staff calling plays.

Also on Rosen, I find it funny how Rosen had similar stats to Josh Allen last year (and arguably a bit better) but Allen is viewed by some people as a breakout star next year.
Well said. I like the smash mouth approach to this draft. I also firmly believe Miami's plan was to get two starting caliber offensive lineman and two starting caliber defensive lineman. Seeing that Rosen was suddenly available they decided to go in another direction. Rosen will be the key to the draft.

I'm not sure I love all the picks, but I think Wilkins has star ability. I love everything about his game. Deiter should start at LG and be a mauler in the run game. Prince is a developmental guy, who could end up at RG. He's another good run blocker.

I like your point about Allen. He was uneven last year for Buffalo and the Bills ran the ball well.
 

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Not a good draft

I was wondering if there was anyone on this forum who did not like this draft at all.

For the our first pick at first I did not like the pick we made but now the big boy is growing on me.

As for the second round I'm not all that happy that we spent a second on Rosen even though we picked up another second for next year, you won't see me complain though as last year I was at the edge of my seat hoping that we drafted Rosen until Arizona crushed my dreams.
You are not making any sense. How are you not happy that we got Rosen for a 2 when just last year you were hoping to land him in the first round? Would you have rather we spent a first round pick on him?
 

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I believe those are the starters. Tunsil LT, Deiter LG, Kilgore C, Reed RG, Davis RT. I do think Asiata could have more value with this staff and could challenge at RG. Prince is a good bet to move inside to guard. I believe this is one area where we'll see a lot of improvement due to the new coaching staff.
Agreed on the starters. If I read the Prince situation correctly, he's more of a project, with huge size they covet for RT. The problem is that he is still raw, so to become useful they need to develop him, which means he's not really contributing much and likely not starting for a couple of years. Then when he's developed he becomes a FA, and we may not be able to afford him.

He's the type of player the Dolphins used to draft … raw with great potential. We didn't win with that approach. I prefer the Patriots approach of drafting guys who have the technique and power to compete today, but may lack the top end potential. Without that top end potential, they're less likely to command a top-end salary in FA, and more likely to re-sign with us. That keeps our OL in tact and productive. So while Prince would make a lot of sense if we had a juggernaut team and were stashing a high reward project on the bench … he doesn't make as much sense for a rock bottom rebuilding effort that needs all hands on deck. But near the end of the draft … you can't be very picky. Either Prince develops into a huge monster at RT, or he doesn't … but he does have a chance to develop. Since we're in tank mode, he might even get reps as a starter … what do we really have to lose?
 

Phinsfan93

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Classic B draft imo. Not much glitz and glam, but hit on players that may fit what you're trying to accomplish.

My problem is everyone saying "Patriots type of draft". Look at what New England has done in the past five, exclude 2016 because whew!, drafts and tell me exactly what we did that was similar. We didn't accumulate multiple picks and we didn't get good value after Day 2 so I'm not sure where that line of thinking is coming from.

The other glaring issue is that although we're not competing anytime soon, none of the players we selected move the needle.
 
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Jay131866

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I think Deiter is going to prove a good solid LG. Kilgore was fine when he was healthy, so if he is our starting center we shouldn't be too weak there. Jesse Davis should do better at RT than RG, so while not ideal, he is serviceable. The guard that the OL coach brought from Jacksonville looks like he has some ability, so he may be able to plug our hole at RG. Not ideal, but I think our OL will be improved, and definitely better than Arizona's last year. Fingers crossed.
Hopefully you are right. imo Kilgore is below avg even when healthy, and we are gonna need excellent C play to deal with Oliver and Williams in the future. I dont think Reed is really any good, but hopefully serviceable. And this is all predicated on the hope that we don't have any injuries on the line.
 

BigNastyFish

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I see two opening day starters (Wilkins and Deiter) and 2 role players who should see spot action (Cox and Gaskin). Beyond that -- we landed a few developmental players (Van Ginkel and Prince). That said, the immediate impact of this draft is not going to radically alter the trajectory of this team. I think the best you can say about this draft is -- "fundamentally sound" based on the premise of addressing scheme needs with deferred results (future potential/upside) as opposed to going all in for more immediate impact.

Of course the "value driven wager" on Rosen is where the gold (or fools gold) resides in this draft. My take is -- don't count on seeing much of Rosen this season unless he really ramps up his fundamentals and masters the O at a highly functional level. Point of fact is -- as evidenced by this draft -- the org is in no hurry out of the gate and 2019 is purely a developmental stage/bridge to the real future they're betting on in 2020 and beyond. Beyond that it would be totally FOOLISH to expose Rosen until they are highly confident in his basic soundness within the O along with consistently demonstrating efficiency/effectiveness practice after practice.

Last, in terms of positioning ourselves for the highest draft position next year -- this draft accomplishes a lot in that direction. Simple fact is we could have added at least 2 more impact players (legit potential starters) with the R2 we traded along with a more aggressive approach in R3 R4. So I'd categorize this as "the draft that could have been" but was in large part deferred for longer term potential. So don't expect much immediate gratification...

As always, it's impossible to determine if this was good - great - or suck draft until the core results (or lack thereof) become clarified. In a year or 2 this draft could look like a hero -- or a total loser.

BNF
 

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Agreed on the starters. If I read the Prince situation correctly, he's more of a project, with huge size they covet for RT. The problem is that he is still raw, so to become useful they need to develop him, which means he's not really contributing much and likely not starting for a couple of years. Then when he's developed he becomes a FA, and we may not be able to afford him.

He's the type of player the Dolphins used to draft … raw with great potential. We didn't win with that approach. I prefer the Patriots approach of drafting guys who have the technique and power to compete today, but may lack the top end potential. Without that top end potential, they're less likely to command a top-end salary in FA, and more likely to re-sign with us. That keeps our OL in tact and productive. So while Prince would make a lot of sense if we had a juggernaut team and were stashing a high reward project on the bench … he doesn't make as much sense for a rock bottom rebuilding effort that needs all hands on deck. But near the end of the draft … you can't be very picky. Either Prince develops into a huge monster at RT, or he doesn't … but he does have a chance to develop. Since we're in tank mode, he might even get reps as a starter … what do we really have to lose?
It's a good point. Miami hasn't done a great job of cap management either. There are a lot of talented players who are no longer on the team, which doesn't really make sense when you look at the overall roster. I think the Suh type of moves are the ones to learn from and avoid. His outrageous salary (good player obviously) made it impossible to keep players like Olivier Vernon, Jarvis Landry etc.
 

Ryan1973

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I see two opening day starters (Wilkins and Deiter) and 2 role players who should see spot action (Cox and Gaskin). Beyond that -- we landed a few developmental players (Van Ginkel and Prince). That said, the immediate impact of this draft is not going to radically alter the trajectory of this team. I think the best you can say about this draft is -- "fundamentally sound" based on the premise of addressing scheme needs with deferred results (future potential/upside) as opposed to going all in for more immediate impact.

Of course the "value driven wager" on Rosen is where the gold (or fools gold) resides in this draft. My take is -- don't count on seeing much of Rosen this season unless he really ramps up his fundamentals and masters the O at a highly functional level. Point of fact is -- as evidenced by this draft -- the org is in no hurry out of the gate and 2019 is purely a developmental stage/bridge to the real future they're betting on in 2020 and beyond. Beyond that it would be totally FOOLISH to expose Rosen until they are highly confident in his basic soundness within the O along with consistently demonstrating efficiency/effectiveness practice after practice.

Last, in terms of positioning ourselves for the highest draft position next year -- this draft accomplishes a lot in that direction. Simple fact is we could have added at least 2 more impact players (legit potential starters) with the R2 we traded along with a more aggressive approach in R3 R4. So I'd categorize this as "the draft that could have been" but was in large part deferred for longer term potential. So don't expect much immediate gratification...

As always, it's impossible to determine if this was good - great - or suck draft until the core results (or lack thereof) become clarified. In a year or 2 this draft could look like a hero -- or a total loser.

BNF
The problem is they have to play Rosen this season to see what they have in him. They need to know if he can be a franchise type QB by the end of the season. If they feel that he won't be, they will probably draft a QB in the 1st round next year. They don't have time to wait and find out down the road.
 
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