Notes from Mel Kiper Chat on ESPN.com

[thepoolboy]

You are clueless. Both make the other effective. Qbs keep safeties out of teh box? Ok rbs keep defenses out of nickel and dimes. Remember thoise defenses Dan faced every play and what SF did against him in teh bowl as well as Elway?

Do you know what you are talking about? How does the presence of a RB keep a defense out of they're nickel and dime packages? If there are three WRs on the field...guess what? There are three CBs on the field. Yeah most teams put a 240 LB on a 180 WR because they are afraid of the run.

Your last post just proved you know very little about the nuances of the game of football.

 

[Tureo]

I may be wrong but I wouldnt take Matt Jones esp. in the 3rd or 4th rd. There are tons of athletic qbs who come out of the draft every year trying to play another position. How many have you heard about being succesful in the nfl. Randle El and even he isnt a #1 wr. Guys like him dont come along every yr.

 

[PhinBeck]

I hope you're not a JayBot because that was anything but a good throw. The facts were laid out as noted in my previous post. I felt Carter could have had the ball - but if all your momentum is going to the left and the QB throws it to the right, what are the chances of success? They are much less than if he threw it accurately in the direction the receiver was leaning.

What FACTS?

No not a Jaybot as you call it, But obviously you are a jay hater that blames anything you can stretch on him. That was not a bad throw. Only haters say that. Hell the one Carter caught that game was way harder catch, he had to go n the air to get it. When a receiver doesnt have to over extend his body, and the ball is in both hands, it is a catch or should be a catch.

 

[PhinBeck]

Do you know what you are talking about? How does the presence of a RB keep a defense out of they're nickel and dime packages? If there are three WRs on the field...guess what? There are three CBs on the field. Yeah most teams put a 240 LB on a 180 WR because they are afraid of the run.

Your last post just proved you know very little about the nuances of the game of football.

LOL you know NOTHING about the nuances of football. How many nickel packages on 1st and ten did jay face when we had Ricky? Playing the nickel and dime as an exclusive defense is playing teh pass and daring teams to run. That is done when defenses dont fear the run. It happens regularly and happened often in 04. If we had any Ricky, he would have those 250 yd games he had in 02.

 

[DolphinTiger]

Did you not read the post that you quoted...no RBs have gone in the top 3 since 1996. Do you think that is a coincidence? A QB failing to perform in the NFL is irrelevent as it relates to draft day value. There are as many QB busts as there are RB busts, yet the fact a QB busts does not stop teams from taking QBs at the top. Teams do not take RBs at the top - Do you think Saban is about to change that?

As for 2002 - QB play cost us the playoffs. If FeeFee hit Carter in the endzone vs. Minny or if he gained one first down vs NE during the final game, we're in the playoffs and likely with a first round bye. There is no disputing the value of the QB position.

Actually, top 3 RB since 1996 is fiction but this only helps your point - It would be 1995 ,Ki-Jana Carter at #1 and we know how that turned out -- I'm sure the fans in Cincinnati haven't forgotten...

My opinion is all three running backs are solid, no doubt - but I think Saban believes this is not only a 3 running back draft, it's quite deeper at that position... Being a LSU fan and watching him a few years I have a feeling he likes Alex Smith -- He never talked too much about individual players at LSU - he spoke more of TEAM goals and accomplishments - BUT, he would throw a lot of compliments toward Matt Mauck's way(LSU's QB) - On Inside LSU, the weekly run-down on TV - He alway's seemed to throw in comments about Mauck's ability to make smart decisions and his ability to avoid losses - Whether he threw it away or took it down and ran.... I think he enjoys having a mobile/athletic QB as well... From everything I've seen on Smith, he's proven he has all the characteristics that I think Saban likes... I'm not sure why he isn't getting more attention by these so called draft experts? He's smart, young, tall, will get bigger, and his arm will get stronger--- although the games I've seen, his arm strength didn't look like a problem. Of course- Seneca Wallace, Akili Smith and Ryan Leaf got tons of coverage from the draft experts - Are they scared to rate QB's high these day's? Didn't take a rocket scientist to rate Archie's son and Peyton's brother pretty high, so they had a pass last draft - Of course, it seems they had Big Ben as a late first rounder, early second rounder -- Pittsburg's pick turned out pretty well - and I believe most of the Steeler fans were comfortable with Maddox before the year started...

As a new Dolfan, I only saw a little of Feeley last year and I realize without a running game and an offensive line, it's hard to succeed - but, where has AJ ever succeeded as a starter? I'm not bashing him, it's just a question? Here is another opinion I'm having - I think Gus is here because he know's Linehan's system -- perfect for good competition for AJ. and also, perfect to groom a young quarterback (Smith)

We have hired the best offensive line coach available -- this will make a difference in our running game - Yes, it's great to have an awesome runningback, but it's better to have great offensive blocking schemes. Ask Denver, KC, and Minnesota - they seem to do okay with whoever they put in --- Well, take KC out of that, I like Priest Holmes all around game - Cadillac reminds me of him....... BTW, what did Priest Holmes do before he got to KC and their offensive line schemes?

Just wanted to put in my 2 cents - I really don't know what Saban is gonna do, I've been sitting here for 2 weeks thinking about this :) - It's great trying to figure the fella out though..... Dolphin fans have a great future to look forward to - sorry about being a bandwagoner, but I'm here to stay - Geaux Dolphins

 

[NorthFinFan85]

Actually, top 3 RB since 1996 is fiction but this only helps your point - It would be 1995 ,Ki-Jana Carter at #1 and we know how that turned out -- I'm sure the fans in Cincinnati haven't forgotten...

Not sure where one instance helps an argument.... there have been QB busts in #1, 2, and 3 spots.

 

[Sirspud]

With all this arguing about Fiedler, I thought I'd chip in. The bottom line is, without a running game, we wouldn't have been there in 2002. Does anyone here have confidence that in 2002 Smith could have taken us to the playoffs without Ricky Williams running, and that he could have made all the throws at the end to win the game? I sure don't. If Smith or Rodgers were truly great passers than I would say lets go for it. But by comparing draft position, Qbs like Roders and Smith aren't usually top 20 picks. Benson, Brown, and Williams are legitimate top 20 and most likely top 10. So we may reach for 5 spots or so for an RB, but 15+ for a QB when we already have a young developing QB. Which sounds better to you?

In response to Dolphintiger's post about Roethelisbergers position, most experts had him in the top 10 and not late first round. I don't know where you were. That is why Big Ben was the last player left in the Green room and NFL programs dramatize his wait. No one could have predicted Eli's refusal to play in SD or Rivers being picked at no. 4. Rivers was never supposed to be a top 10 pick and he was certainly a better prospect than either Rodgers or Smith. It's not that Rivers was really worth the no. 4 pick, it's that the Chargers got a ton of value for their trade with draft picks from the Giants.

 

[thepoolboy]

LOL you know NOTHING about the nuances of football. How many nickel packages on 1st and ten did jay face when we had Ricky? Playing the nickel and dime as an exclusive defense is playing teh pass and daring teams to run. That is done when defenses dont fear the run. It happens regularly and happened often in 04. If we had any Ricky, he would have those 250 yd games he had in 02.

Oh I very much understand the nuances of football...but why don't you enlighen me on which teams base out of a nickel or dime. Teams base their defensive allignment depending on the offensive personnel on the field. If you don't, you run in to mismatches that any competent QB can recognize pre-snap thus setting your offense up for higher percentage plays.

If you have a nickelback over a tigh-end...what do you do? You run right at him. That's why that type of BS is not done.

 

[DolphinTiger]

Actually, top 3 RB since 1996 is fiction but this only helps your point - It would be 1995 ,Ki-Jana Carter at #1 and we know how that turned out -- I'm sure the fans in Cincinnati haven't forgotten...

Not sure where one instance helps an argument.... there have been QB busts in #1, 2, and 3 spots.

Did you not understand the point? He said there hasn't been a top 3 RB taken since "96 - I told him it's actually has been since "95 -- There have been bust at QB, RB, WR, Offensive Line, Defensive Line, Cornerback and Safety at #1,#2 and #3. Not sure what you are trying to tell me. My whole post was an opinion......

 

[thepoolboy]

With all this arguing about Fiedler, I thought I'd chip in. The bottom line is, without a running game, we wouldn't have been there in 2002. Does anyone here have confidence that in 2002 Smith could have taken us to the playoffs without Ricky Williams running, and that he could have made all the throws at the end to win the game? I sure don't. If Smith or Rodgers were truly great passers than I would say lets go for it. But by comparing draft position, Qbs like Roders and Smith aren't usually top 20 picks. Benson, Brown, and Williams are legitimate top 20 and most likely top 10. So we may reach for 5 spots or so for an RB, but 15+ for a QB when we already have a young developing QB. Which sounds better to you?

Smith would have been 18 years old in 2002 - so the odds would have been against him performing at the NFL level.

I'll pose the same question to you as I did another poster who refused to answer. If you feel Smith is not a top prospect, what is this based on? What have you seen in his performance that concerns you? In which game or game situation did this occur?

 

[PhinBeck]

Oh I very much understand the nuances of football...but why don't you enlighen me on which teams base out of a nickel or dime. Teams base their defensive allignment depending on the offensive personnel on the field. If you don't, you run in to mismatches that any competent QB can recognize pre-snap thus setting your offense up for higher percentage plays.

If you have a nickelback over a tigh-end...what do you do? You run right at him. That's why that type of BS is not done.

No sh*t, that is what I am talking about. Cleve did it to us this year with the nickel all game, 6 and 7 dbs numerous times. Why? they didnt fear the run. They took away the mid range and deep balls and froced us short and dared us to run, we didnt. SF did it in the super bowl to Danny. They never let Danny throw against a straight 4 db backfield. If you dont fear the run, you scheme against the pass. NE is famous for it. Remember teh no d-lineman scheme? is that designed to defend teh run? No team plays a base nickel. Man nice sidestep, but shows you have no argument. Like Van said, I am done arguing stupidity.

 

[PhinBeck]

Smith would have been 18 years old in 2002 - so the odds would have been against him performing at the NFL level.

I'll pose the same question to you as I did another poster who refused to answer. If you feel Smith is not a top prospect, what is this based on? What have you seen in his performance that concerns you? In which game or game situation did this occur?

I will give you 2

Arm strength - questionable

Gimmick offense, exclusively from teh shotgun 4 and receiver sets exclusively.

 

[Sirspud]

Smith would have been 18 years old in 2002 - so the odds would have been against him performing at the NFL level.

I'll pose the same question to you as I did another poster who refused to answer. If you feel Smith is not a top prospect, what is this based on? What have you seen in his performance that concerns you? In which game or game situation did this occur?

It was a theoretical question about if a developed Smith had the 2002 team except with a below average running game. Sorry if I was unclear, it was not meant to be taken literally.

As for my evaluation of Smith, I have seen him play and listened to the evaluations of experts, who usually are in line with what the teams are thinking. Nothing has shown me that this guy is worth a no. 2 overall pick. Most of the experts admit that the Qb's are overvalued in this draft, so why would we reach when we have a much more pressing need and a fairly good chance of filling that in the draft.

 

[Sirspud]

No sh*t, that is what I am talking about. Cleve did it to us this year with the nickel all game, 6 and 7 dbs numerous times. Why? they didnt fear the run. They took away the mid range and deep balls and froced us short and dared us to run, we didnt. SF did it in the super bowl to Danny. They never let Danny throw against a straight 4 db backfield. If you dont fear the run, you scheme against the pass. NE is famous for it. Remember teh no d-lineman scheme? is that designed to defend teh run? No team plays a base nickel. Man nice sidestep, but shows you have no argument. Like Van said, I am done arguing stupidity.

Feely's stats would have been significantly better this year, as would our record, if we would have had a running game that needed defending. His first half in the Buffalo game was phenomenal, and most people seem to forget that. A modest running game would have kept the Bills from playing pass and getting those picks, several of which were fluke int's and clearly the fault of the reciever. Morris and Minor didn't a have the capability to punish defenses for playing pass and that's part of the reason why we did so poorly in the passing game.

 

[thepoolboy]

No sh*t, that is what I am talking about. Cleve did it to us this year with the nickel all game, 6 and 7 dbs numerous times. Why? they didnt fear the run. They took away the mid range and deep balls and froced us short and dared us to run, we didnt. SF did it in the super bowl to Danny. They never let Danny throw against a straight 4 db backfield. If you dont fear the run, you scheme against the pass. NE is famous for it. Remember teh no d-lineman scheme? is that designed to defend teh run? No team plays a base nickel. Man nice sidestep, but shows you have no argument. Like Van said, I am done arguing stupidity.

You're the one sidestepping - you started talking about a defensive formation and it suddenly turned into a scheme. Being that the two are different, you clearly don't know what you are talking about. NFL defenses base their formation as it relates to the offensive personnel on the field. The scheme is what changes.

Do you honestly think NE uses these silly formations when the offense is lined up in a conventional formation on 1st and 10? You made an erroneous comment regarding nickel and dime formations and have been scrambling ever since.