Some context for the Brees comparison | Page 6 | FinHeaven - Miami Dolphins Forums

Some context for the Brees comparison

Agreed. i believe this is the main difference. Unfortunately I don't think it's a trait that can really be learned. It's more about who you are.

I do think Tua has to be a stronger voice on the team. I don't think he can be so passive. His personality (or lack thereof) makes him kind of hard to root for as the face of the franchise--and nobody wants to defend that. It's a bit reminiscent of Tannehill-esque in that regard. We all want a guy that inspires us.

Only thing I'd point out is that Drew Brees was a 10-yr vet in those clips with a lot of production and experience under his belt. He'd had time to fail before that and people too often criticize Tua for stuff that could've been said about Brees (and a ton of others) early on as well.
 
It wasn't passive aggressive. It's just that we've had this debate many times previously and you always do the same thing by not giving a direct response. I understand completely why you are hesitant.

I was also correct in my assumption that you would refuse a straight, simple answer this time.

Do you think physical attributes are a distinct advantage?

Do you think Brees is an outlier, for whatever reason?

Look, like I said, there are several important factors. Hell, the overall team makeup is a factor, too.

I just wish you would acknowledge that superior athletic ability is important, as well.

You almost did when you said "just as important".

Almost every QB in history has had flaws to one extent or another. Why so hard to admit this one does as well?

We can all have different opinions on the value or diminished value of many different traits. But let's not pretend these traits are unimportant when evaluating.
All I posted in this thread was the simple fact that since 2004, Tua was top 10 in both rating and YPA, with no opinion attached. Then you asked who were the other players in that top 10, I took time to re-run the filters to give you an answer, again with no opinion of my own... Then you proceed to refute those facts with vague theories backed up by nothing whatsoever and tell me I'm going to tap dance... We're done here... :UP:
 
Last edited:
I like Tua. He's a good quarterback and Miami can win with him.

But the Brees comparisons need to stop. I get that we're comparing their development as athletes, not anything else, but even still it's off-target. Drew Brees entered the NFL in what really was a completely different era of football. Their careers are not comparable.

How strongly do you feel that's true?

During Brees' best years ('09-'18), Rodgers was doing all the scrambling stuff Pat Mahomes is now. Their season-long rushing totals reflect that element of their game and are quite comparable. Rodgers was very mobile and a lot of his would-be Super Bowl title runs were ended against conventional teams with conventional QBs.

In fact, Rodgers is yet another QB who started 0-1 in the Playoffs and ended with a .500 record of 11-10. The point is not to argue that it's bad, but rather normal for that kind of record to appear in the Playoffs when other teams are literally just as good.

It wasn't strictly immobile, statuesque pocket passers. Guys like Colin Kaepernick and Cam Newton were reaching the Super Bowl in addition to pocket guys like Eli Manning, Ben Roethlisberger, Joe Flacco, Matt Ryan and Tom Brady. It was a mix then and it still is now.

The NFL 10 years ago wasn't different compared to how it is today.
 
Last edited:
All I posted in this thread was the simple fact that since 2004, Tua was top 10 in both rating and YPA, with no opinion attached. Then you asked who were the other players were in that top 10, I took time to re-run the filters to give you an answer, again with no opinion of my own... Then you proceed to refute those facts with vague theories backed up by nothing whatsoever and tell me I'm going to tap dance... We're done here... :UP:
My apologies for pi$$ing you off.

First of all, hardly anyone was talking about arm strength in this thread, and while some did bring up running ability, it was quickly pointed out by others that we weren't talking about that.

The thread title is pretty clear. I don't think either Tua, or Brees are ever going to be considered strong armed guys, nor is running in either 's wheelhouse. Not sure why that was brought up.

I only addressed it when I saw the others on that list.

Again, my apologies.
 
I think it's very clear that many fans just prefer the QB to be the star. While that's understandable they should recall the collapse of Deshaun Watson.

They should look at Colin Kaepernick and be honest that the reason he's not here today isn't his being black-balled but rather that he just wasn't that great. In the seasons after his Super Bowl appearance (which was his first year starting), he went 23-28. He had plenty of chance to prove he was a guy. He wasn't.

There are a dozen other guys whose careers have gone up and down. Cam Newton was NFL MVP and 15-1 at one point on the doorstep of bringing a Championship to Carolina. He was the unstoppable "perfect athlete" at the position just like Jalen Hurts last year.

I get that people love do-it-all QBs but they're hardly the proven answer. Mahomes is the exception to every rule in the book. Ask the Bills about that. He can't be used to support a narrative one way or the other.

Zooming in on the QBs who run around and put up sexy rushing stats is fine but they often go wildly up and down and few have actually won the title when given the opportunity.

Fans shouldn't be ashamed for liking those guys but they should understand that it's an impulsive flinch reaction and not actually something which is required to win in the NFL. If that were the case I think Watson, Kaepernick, Newton, Hurts and Allen would have titles but that group has 0.

If you're just here to compliment Pat Mahomes, join the club, LOL.
 
I think it's very clear that many fans just prefer the QB to be the star. While that's understandable they should recall the collapse of Deshaun Watson.

They should look at Colin Kaepernick and be honest that the reason he's not here today isn't his being black-balled but rather that he just wasn't that great. In the seasons after his Super Bowl appearance (which was his first year starting), he went 23-28. He had plenty of chance to prove he was a guy. He wasn't.

There are a dozen other guys whose careers have gone up and down. Cam Newton was NFL MVP and 15-1 at one point on the doorstep of bringing a Championship to Carolina. He was the unstoppable "perfect athlete" at the position just like Jalen Hurts last year.

I get that people love do-it-all QBs but they're hardly the proven answer. Mahomes is the exception to every rule in the book. Ask the Bills about that. He can't be used to support a narrative one way or the other.

Zooming in on the QBs who run around and put up sexy rushing stats is fine but they often go wildly up and down and few have actually won the title when given the opportunity.

Fans shouldn't be ashamed for liking those guys but they should understand that it's an impulsive flinch reaction and not actually something which is required to win in the NFL. If that were the case I think Watson, Kaepernick, Newton, Hurts and Allen would have titles but that group has 0.

If you're just here to compliment Pat Mahomes, join the club, LOL.
True.

You know what type wins the most Championships? The prototypical, 6'2" - 6'6", 220-240 lb pocket passer who can move around the pocket, and buy time outside the pocket until a receiver comes uncovered.

That's, historically, been the prototype. Would you not agree?
 
I disagree with that premise.

Three guys, add hurts and it's four off the bat are playing now. There have been several others over the past two decades, but only one Brees in that time frame.

How is that equivalent in terms of "outliers"?
Mahomes is different from those other 3 or 4 guys as he's a pocket passer first and foremost that can scramble.

The others are not pocket passers, they take off and scramble a lot to make plays happen as they don't read the defence correctly.

Mahomes is a unicorn, you get the best of both worlds with him.

Maybe Lamar with his #1 rated defence and #1 rated run game finally breaks my thoughts of if Mike Vick couldn't win a Super Bowl then no run first QB will.
 
All I can say is remember the stats Culpepper put up with Randy Moss? And then they took Moss away and what did Culpepper look like?

Pedestrian.

It’s kind of sickening Miami could have drafted both Brees and Moss
 
True.

You know what type wins the most Championships? The prototypical, 6'2" - 6'6", 220-240 lb pocket passer who can move around the pocket, and buy time outside the pocket until a receiver comes uncovered.

That's, historically, been the prototype. Would you not agree?

I would definitely feel better if we were able to draft a Tua Tagovailoa that was more in line with conventional metrics. Most assuredly we all would. It would help end a lot of debates which themselves are really the topic here.

The fact that most successful QBs are "prototypical" in size hides the reality that most failures are as well. Tannehill was the prototype. So were Sam Darnold, Carson Wentz and 1,000 others. Their collective failure led directly to the Dolphins passing on a similar QB in Justin Herbert who's been equally disappointing in not turning around the fate of his team, the Chargers.

The preference for someone with real pocket instincts, an ability to execute an ever-evolving offense and an instinct to attack despite his smaller stature was precisely what the Dolphins demonstrated coming off the promise of "prototypical measurables" that so often fall short and most certainly did with Tannehill.

A lesser number of small guys have been great, too, obviously, but that's also partly because small guys are less often major QB prospects to begin with. We can look at Steve Young, Drew Brees and Russell Wilson. Their being "exceptions" is only true if a large number of small QBs are being drafted which of course isn't the case. Small QBs are simply altogether rare. The position doesn't select for it. But the question isn't whether small QBs are rare but rather if the small one we have is good.

Those smaller guys all have to bring something. Young and Wilson were dynamic escape artists. Brees was really efficient and at the end began to achieve a combination of cmp%, int% and sck% that made his offense really hard to stop. Tua has to do that as well, but you can't expect perfect at year #4.

What you should be doing is looking at the projections and you're not even giving that the time of day. I'd obviously trade Tua for Pat Mahomes, Lamar Jackson or Josh Allen but that's not in the cards. You could've said the same about trading a young Drew Brees for prime-of-his-career Aaron Rodgers. There's always a best-in-class.

But the fact is that you have Tua here today. You'll never have Mahomes, Allen or Jackson. You have to make peace with that. If you're for ditching Tua--fine--but you haven't made a good case for whatever you imagine the alternative being. And that's likely because your attitude is based more in fantasy than in reality.

I don't mean any offense by any of that mind you. Everybody wishes they had Pat Mahomes.
 
I agree. Tua isn't done learning and growing yet. Also, considering the alternatives, we really couldn't give up on Tua if we wanted to. Who could we legitimately bring in that's better? Isn't our offense fairly complex? We also would be throwing away all that chemistry he has with Hill, Waddle, etc., and would have to start over. We've made our bed with Tua. We have to find a way to make it work.

I agree and I think its more that coaches need to add a new dimension to the offense. Obviously Our offense did well against most teams we beat, but i think they need to build upon, add more to the weaknesses of having an all speed/finesse team (to beat the buffalos and KCs).

Adding a talented Taller/stronger WR, a between the tackle runner, implementing the TE, and so on and so forth. Those things to compliment what we already have. Defensively we need to play more disciplined, especially tackling well. And when big games come, show up and play with more intensity.
 
I would definitely feel better if we were able to draft a Tua Tagovailoa that was more in line with conventional metrics. Most assuredly we all would. It would help end a lot of debates which themselves are really the topic here.

The fact that most successful QBs are "prototypical" in size hides the reality that most failures are as well. Tannehill was the prototype. So were Sam Darnold, Carson Wentz and 1,000 others. Their collective failure led directly to the Dolphins passing on a similar QB in Justin Herbert who's been equally disappointing in not turning around the fate of his team, the Chargers.

The preference for someone with real pocket instincts, an ability to execute an ever-evolving offense and an instinct to attack despite his smaller stature was precisely what the Dolphins demonstrated coming off the promise of "prototypical measurables" that so often fall short and most certainly did with Tannehill.

A lesser number of small guys have been great, too, obviously, but that's also partly because small guys are less often major QB prospects to begin with. We can look at Steve Young, Drew Brees and Russell Wilson. Their being "exceptions" is only true if a large number of small QBs are being drafted which of course isn't the case. Small QBs are simply altogether rare. The position doesn't select for it. But the question isn't whether small QBs are rare but rather if the small one we have is good.

Those smaller guys all have to bring something. Young and Wilson were dynamic escape artists. Brees was really efficient and at the end began to achieve a combination of cmp%, int% and sck% that made his offense really hard to stop. Tua has to do that as well, but you can't expect perfect at year #4.

What you should be doing is looking at the projections and you're not even giving that the time of day. I'd obviously trade Tua for Pat Mahomes, Lamar Jackson or Josh Allen but that's not in the cards. You could've said the same about trading a young Drew Brees for prime-of-his-career Aaron Rodgers. There's always a best-in-class.

But the fact is that you have Tua here today. You'll never have Mahomes, Allen or Jackson. You have to make peace with that. If you're for ditching Tua--fine--but you haven't made a good case for whatever you imagine the alternative being. And that's likely because your attitude is based more in fantasy than in reality.

I don't mean any offense by any of that mind you. Everybody wishes they had Pat Mahomes.
Fair enough.

I would take issue with my attitude being fantasy.

I have defended Tua at times when ppl were off base, IMO, with their assessments. I have also been a critic when I thought warranted, so please don't label me some sort of hater. I do have a preference in the physical attributes of a QB, while also recognizing that is not the whole story.

At this point, though, my "attitude" as you put it also has to factor in that a franchise altering decision, whether or not to sign Tua to a big, long term contract, looms on the horizon, and I'm just not convinced that extending him is a good idea. Are you convinced? We even have some here saying the best thing about giving him a new contract is that it would give us a better cap situation in the short term of this year. I know that is not a good reason to hitch your wagon to a guy for 4 years.

No doubt he has done some applaudable things statistically. On the other hand, he has been hurt. He hasn't won any playoff games. Not that he bears total responsibility, but he hasn't been particularly clutch, or won a single playoff game.

Some say Tua needs more time. Well, that is a valid opinion and option, but it isn't the only one.
 
Fair enough.

I would take issue with my attitude being fantasy.

I have defended Tua at times when ppl were off base, IMO, with their assessments. I have also been a critic when I thought warranted, so please don't label me some sort of hater. I do have a preference in the physical attributes of a QB, while also recognizing that is not the whole story.

At this point, though, my "attitude" as you put it also has to factor in that a franchise altering decision, whether or not to sign Tua to a big, long term contract, looms on the horizon, and I'm just not convinced that extending him is a good idea. Are you convinced? We even have some here saying the best thing about giving him a new contract is that it would give us a better cap situation in the short term of this year. I know that is not a good reason to hitch your wagon to a guy for 4 years.

No doubt he has done some applaudable things statistically. On the other hand, he has been hurt. He hasn't won any playoff games. Not that he bears total responsibility, but he hasn't been particularly clutch, or won a single playoff game.

Some say Tua needs more time. Well, that is a valid opinion and option, but it isn't the only one.

Tua has to keep himself healthy. There's no debate about that. The fact that Burrow ended the season on IR for the 2nd time in his 4-year career is proof that it's not just Tua though. If fact, Herbert also went down with injury and ended up on IR as well. It's just brutal in the NFL these days--all the more reason you have to factor that into QBs like Lamar Jackson who run so much. He missed 5 games in '21 and another 5 games in '22. What does that say?

Brees learned to stay healthy which is another thing a pocket QB can do. His sck% was 4-5% early on (which aligns with Tua now). But Brees was able to learn from that pounding he took as well as the significance of his major injury in SD and made it a point of emphasis that he protect himself. Brees got his sck% down to 3% once he got to NO and it led to 15 seasons with only 4 missed games as I pointed out in my earlier post.

Tua protected himself this year and made it through 18 games. Can he do that for 10 more seasons, LOL? We don't know. It's a hope. But he came back from the hip so he can overcome big things. I'm less inclined to overlook the constant ankles, ribs, fingers, etc. but truth is, what we're asking for here is more just basic evolution of becoming a more aware and veteran pocket passer. Eli Manning started with a 5-6% sack rate and got that down to 3-4% in many of his later years. It's just maturity and experience.


If there's a Pat Mahomes available in the draft, go get him. I'm all for it. The Chiefs moved up from around where we are to #10 to make it happen but Mahomes was unique, even as a prospect.

The reality is that Tua has shown way more than most Alex Smith / Jared Goff types who people often compare him to as modest QBs who got replaced so their teams could reach the Super Bowl and win. It may be year #6 or #10 where Tua wins the Super Bowl like Goff might this year. Do we want to be the team that traded him for peanuts? Or maybe Purdy wins and we have to watch a QB who's younger, sloppier and less consistent than Tua hoist the Lombardi knowing we traded Tua for peanuts.

You'e got to have a plan. My plan is bold but I'd look at trading Tyreek while he has value. Give me that money to sign Wilkins and another R1 pick to pair with what I've got so I can draft CB, OL and WR/TE in the first 2 rounds. I'll take that team. Someone else can have the $25M WR.

Tua elevates everyone. He elevated Jeudy and Ruggs at Bama. He's elevated Waddle with the Dolphins. He gave Tyreek 2 massively productive years. He made Hollins and Gesicki look better than they were. He put up a 90-rating throwing to Carroo and Ford. Dude, you've got to trust a pocket passer to produce. He doesn't need the league's leading WR. He's need good WRs. Save the "great" for the OL.
 
Just a quick glance from various sources:

20 - Deshaun Watson - only list him because SO many Dolphins fans wanted him or still do. I've never been one of those.
15 - Dan Marino
15 - Donovan McNabb
15 - Jim Kelly
15 - Terry Bradshaw
13 - Lamar Jackson

There are reasons the wonderlic is almost trash. There is a list of bad QBs you've never heard of with high wonderlic scores.

Fitzmagic aced it and Alex Smith got a 49 IIRC
 
Back
Top Bottom