Some context for the Brees comparison

[circumstances]

Yeah, the only caveat here is that I think Tua's actions are a product of his coaching. He's reading the defense as he's being taught. He's reading based on the defenders he's told to look at. He's going thru the progressions as they're laid out by McDaniel.

While I agree the overall offense needs to improve, I don't automatically lay that at the feet of the player.

Especially when he is often throwing to spots, and his receivers aren't in those spots when the ball is.

 

[marino13zach54]

Tua is a chess piece.

The coaches, and largely the play callers (Fangio and MM), are the “chess players”.

Tua is the queen - he’s an important chess piece, but he is still just that.

Tua has his limitations, but MM fell short calling plays and adjusting his offense throughout the season and put his chess pieces in poor positions.

I will say Tua was less clutch this season than in years past, not sure why…

But MM needed to adjust better in game. He didn’t. Tua honed in on Hill too much? So MM needs to use Hill as bait more. He didn’t. How is THAT Tua’s fault, then?

Excellent chess analogy except for the Queen bit. The queen is your most important piece. Yes, the game is over when your king gets mated but you don't play chess on the defensive. You move to strike, strike to kill and the queen has the best movement on the board.

Due to Tua's terrible deficiencies in aspects of his game i.e. making plays on the move or under pressure, I believe McDaniel is our queen, especially if he's going to live up to that "genius" characterization. It was/is Mcdaniel's job to put Tua in the most optimal position to do what Tua does best. Now, McDaniel did accomplish this a plethora amount of the time. Tua is not the only reason why he is in the pro bowl. But it seemed as though when defenses figured out McDaniel's plan of attack, McDaniel could not respond/adjust.

We came out of halftime in that division championship game as if everyone took a 20 minute nap & not a word was discussed on how to attack the Bills in the 2nd half. We took the field- 3 & out, 3 & out, 3 & f@cking out.

Get Tua an offensive line. Focus on learning audibles this offseason. And for the love of God, please scheme something thats not, "Please let Hill get open."

 

[Springveldt]

True.

You know what type wins the most Championships? The prototypical, 6'2" - 6'6", 220-240 lb pocket passer who can move around the pocket, and buy time outside the pocket until a receiver comes uncovered.

That's, historically, been the prototype. Would you not agree?

Interestingly the overall #1last year and projected overall #1 this year both don't fit this mould as they are both what would be considered undersized. I wonder if they both flame out if the NFL will go back to valuing size more than talent on tape?

 

[Mach2]

Fitzmagic aced it and Alex Smith got a 49 IIRC

I don't think anyone was implying that a high score equals a good QB. It does, however, indicate intelligence to a degree.

Intelligence as it relates to football? Probably not all that much. I mean let's be honest here. It isn't theoretical physics or genetic engineering.

 

[Mach2]

Interestingly the overall #1last year and projected overall #1 this year both don't fit this mould as they are both what would be considered undersized. I wonder if they both flame out if the NFL will go back to valuing size more than talent on tape?

Probably.

I wonder whatever happened with that Kyler Murray kid..........

 

[utahphinsfan]

I don't think anyone was implying that a high score equals a good QB. It does, however, indicate intelligence to a degree.

Intelligence as it relates to football? Probably not all that much. I mean let's be honest here. It isn't theoretical physics or genetic engineering.

Agreed. I was keying on 2 mediocre QB's that knocked it out of the park.

I have taken the aforementioned test and scored the same as AS.

The fact we both graduated from the same institution of higher learning is sheer coincidence. /s

p.s. The wonderlic is a very generic test & less descriptive of skill set than say the ASVAB

 

[Mach2]

I would definitely feel better if we were able to draft a Tua Tagovailoa that was more in line with conventional metrics. Most assuredly we all would. It would help end a lot of debates which themselves are really the topic here.

The fact that most successful QBs are "prototypical" in size hides the reality that most failures are as well. Tannehill was the prototype. So were Sam Darnold, Carson Wentz and 1,000 others. Their collective failure led directly to the Dolphins passing on a similar QB in Justin Herbert who's been equally disappointing in not turning around the fate of his team, the Chargers.

The preference for someone with real pocket instincts, an ability to execute an ever-evolving offense and an instinct to attack despite his smaller stature was precisely what the Dolphins demonstrated coming off the promise of "prototypical measurables" that so often fall short and most certainly did with Tannehill.

A lesser number of small guys have been great, too, obviously, but that's also partly because small guys are less often major QB prospects to begin with. We can look at Steve Young, Drew Brees and Russell Wilson. Their being "exceptions" is only true if a large number of small QBs are being drafted which of course isn't the case. Small QBs are simply altogether rare. The position doesn't select for it. But the question isn't whether small QBs are rare but rather if the small one we have is good.

Those smaller guys all have to bring something. Young and Wilson were dynamic escape artists. Brees was really efficient and at the end began to achieve a combination of cmp%, int% and sck% that made his offense really hard to stop. Tua has to do that as well, but you can't expect perfect at year #4.

What you should be doing is looking at the projections and you're not even giving that the time of day. I'd obviously trade Tua for Pat Mahomes, Lamar Jackson or Josh Allen but that's not in the cards. You could've said the same about trading a young Drew Brees for prime-of-his-career Aaron Rodgers. There's always a best-in-class.

But the fact is that you have Tua here today. You'll never have Mahomes, Allen or Jackson. You have to make peace with that. If you're for ditching Tua--fine--but you haven't made a good case for whatever you imagine the alternative being. And that's likely because your attitude is based more in fantasy than in reality.

I don't mean any offense by any of that mind you. Everybody wishes they had Pat Mahomes.

Ask yourself why smaller QBs aren't as much considered prospects, or given the same opportunities.

I have to assume that the majority of GMs, scouts and coaches prefer bigger, stronger, or more athletic guys.

I mean if you look at the few who actually got a long term look such as Vick or Murray, or even going back to Flutie for that matter most of them had phenomenal athletic skills beyond the standard QB requirements, or they would not have been drafted as highly.

In fact, without doing any digging, I suspect Tua is probably the only smallish, meh athletic attributes drafted in the top 10 in the last 40 years.

Not saying that good or bad or right or wrong. It is what it is.

 

[dolphinron24]

Just to play devil's advocate, Tua may be being coached to not do too much of that due to injury concerns.

There are critical times when that needs to be thrown out the window, though.

I actually strongly agree with this. I'm not saying he is Jackson or Allen, but he could move a bit before.

 

[Mello Yello]

Ask yourself why smaller QBs aren't as much considered prospects, or given the same opportunities.

I have to assume that the majority of GMs, scouts and coaches prefer bigger, stronger, or more athletic guys.

I mean if you look at the few who actually got a long term look such as Vick or Murray, or even going back to Flutie for that matter most of them had phenomenal athletic skills beyond the standard QB requirements, or they would not have been drafted as highly.

In fact, without doing any digging, I suspect Tua is probably the only smallish, meh athletic attributes drafted in the top 10 in the last 40 years.

Not saying that good or bad or right or wrong. It is what it is.

I'll this then, you need to take a stronger stand against him which is another thing I've argued fans need to do. Get off the fence, which has become far too much the hall-mark of Miami fans. They take 7 years to decide Tannehill is what he looked like in year #2.

Come up with an alternative strategy for the Dolphins. Find a QB that's on the market, name a prospect, etc. If Tua's not the guy then who is and what's it going to cost and what are the moves to get that other guy?

It isn't fair to point out Tua's physical short-comings and that it's a risk for the Dolphins to re-sign him long-term without producing an alternative strategy and at least suggesting what it might take to execute on that.

 

[Mello Yello]

Probably.

I wonder whatever happened with that Kyler Murray kid..........

The Arizona Cardinals are one of a few NFC teams I'd target when trying to move Tyreek Hill for a R1 pick although I doubt they'd give up the #4 pick for him.

Thing is, they're locked into their QB and he loves to throw it deep. Last good season(s) he had were back when Hopkins was healthy.

 

[Mach2]

I'll this then, you need to take a stronger stand against him which is another thing I've argued fans need to do. Get off the fence, which has become far too much the hall-mark of Miami fans. They take 7 years to decide Tannehill is what he looked like in year #2.

Come up with an alternative strategy for the Dolphins. Find a QB that's on the market, name a prospect, etc. If Tua's not the guy then who is and what's it going to cost and what are the moves to get that other guy?

It isn't fair to point out Tua's physical short-comings and that it's a risk for the Dolphins to re-sign him long-term without producing an alternative strategy and at least suggesting what it might take to execute on that.

There is nothing realistically viable that can be done going into next season. Tua is fully guaranteed 23m next season. He is our starting QB.

My preferred course of action is to let him play out his option year, and reassess. He will get another year to demonstrate continued improvement without locking him in with a long term, relatively high $, substantially guaranteed contract.

If he has a great year, we can then give him a contract. If he has a poor year, I would prefer to go back to the draft and try again.

We are going to have to bite the bullet at some point and reset the cap situation. The two go hand in hand as far as a synchronous time frame.

Now, you and others may hate the thought of doing this, but if Tua is all that some believe, it doesn't come to that anyway. If he isn't the guy, then best to start over, given the overall situation.

 

[Mello Yello]

Interestingly the overall #1last year and projected overall #1 this year both don't fit this mould as they are both what would be considered undersized. I wonder if they both flame out if the NFL will go back to valuing size more than talent on tape?

I think the lesson of the past 10-12 years is very clearly that if you draft a QB he can be very productive depending on the state of the team: Russell Wilson, Jared Goff, Carson Wentz, Pat Mahomes, Joe Burrow, Jalen Hurts, Brock Purdy, etc. Assuming the 49ers beat the Lions, those will all have reached the Super Bowl, half of them multiple times.

...and when those teams falter the QBs often don't look so unbeatable, do they? Half of those guys got traded!

It's also very clear that if your team flatly sucks or your OC is awful you probably shouldn't be drafting a QB and throwing him into that mess: Sam Darnold, Justin Fields, Kenny Pickett, Bryce Young, etc. All may have their careers wasted with early failure and a complete lack of development. We can blame them but they all went to horrible situations.

As for Mitch Trubisky, Josh Rosen and Zach Wilson, I think they mostly just stink which some will of course. Got to allow for that.

But the theme is team.

 

[Mello Yello]

There is nothing realistically viable that can be done going into next season. Tua is fully guaranteed 23m next season. He is our starting QB.

My preferred course of action is to let him play out his option year, and reassess. He will get another year to demonstrate continued improvement without locking him in with a long term, relatively high $, substantially guaranteed contract.

If he has a great year, we can then give him a contract. If he has a poor year, I would prefer to go back to the draft and try again.

We are going to have to bite the bullet at some point and reset the cap situation. The two go hand in hand as far as a synchronous time frame.

Now, you and others may hate the thought of doing this, but if Tua is all that some believe, it doesn't come to that anyway. If he isn't the guy, then best to start over, given the overall situation.

Sorry but I just don't buy that. It's always "I need to see one more year." That's how we got to year #7 with Ryan Tannehill.

I've watched Tua for 6 straight seasons. I don't know what you haven't seen yet that isn't available on tape but you don't need 7 seasons of tape on somebody to figure it out. He is what he is. You either sign him for that and you build for that future or you get ready to replace him.

Shocker--he's not going to play 2024 as a different QB compared to who he was. You'll be right back here complaining about the same stuff and asking all the same questions about Tua the player.

The offense may be better and the team may win more games but the point stands, you should be able to distinguish what Tua is and where he projects based on what's on tape already.

 

[Mach2]

Sorry but I just don't buy that. It's always "I need to see one more year." That's how we got to year #7 with Ryan Tannehill.

I've watched Tua for 6 straight seasons. I don't know what you haven't seen yet that isn't available on tape but you don't need 7 seasons of tape on somebody to figure it out. He is what he is. You either sign him for that and you build for that future or you get ready to replace him.

Shocker--he's not going to play 2024 as a different QB compared to who he was. The offense may be better but you should be able to distinguish that based on what's on tape.

I hope you are wrong. It would be best for the team if Tua did improve. Not sure why you would think that is not likely or possible.

I'm also not sure why you would do anything before you actually had to.

You mentioned the RT17 situation, but I see that completely opposite. We have him a second contract before we had to. How did that work out for us? We ended up paying Tennessee to take him off our hands.

We disagree in philosophy, and that's fine.

 

[Mello Yello]

I hope you are wrong. It would be best for the team if Tua did improve. Not sure why you would think that is not likely or possible.

I'm also not sure why you would do anything before you actually had to.

You mentioned the RT17 situation, but I see that completely opposite. We have him a second contract before we had to. How did that work out for us? We ended up paying Tennessee to take him off our hands.

We disagree in philosophy, and that's fine.

Because it's good business.

You aren't going to have "more information" at the end of 2024. The idea that in a year you'll feel comfortable about signing the same exact QB you've watched for 2+4 seasons is foolishly naive.

The fact stands you just want to wait for success to happen so it makes the decision for you. That isn't the game here. You have to decide before the success happens otherwise you'll increase the compensation down the road because of other offers and you'll have lost the chance to sign players in the interim.

Look at Christian Wilkins...did you learn anything about him this year you hadn't seen on tape prior? If you say yes, you're lying. He was the same player. His pressures went up in the Fangio scheme--which the Dolphins should've been smart enough to predict--and waiting to see it happen first hand is going to cost the Dolphins $$$ and maybe ultimately the player entirely.

I don't blame you necessarily. It's not your job to predict what will happen and make moves according to those (accurate) predictions. But educated fans should still be aware of what is/isn't realistic for player development and I seriously doubt the tape will show Tua magically transform himself next year. We already know what level of scrambler he is from '20 and '21. We know he can protect himself. We know he can read flat defenders. We know he can read safeties. We know his footwork and ball handling are great. We already know he can go through progressions.

That stuff is all over the game tape. If you're not watching the player and are instead just pointing to results that's something any fan can do.

We expect more of the GM. He's not supposed to react to what happened. He's paid to know why it happened and what will happen next.

The fans will always ask to see one more year because they don't want to be held accountable for actually looking at the player and doing the job of analyzing whether what's there is sufficient to build around.

Sorry, no, you have plenty to look at on tape. You either feel alright building around Tua or you should be dumping him right now to get on with the drafting of another in '24 or '25.

Being noncommittal isn't a heroic demonstration of patience. It's what makes a typical fan.