Tannehill versus Wilson: Did we draft the right quarterback? | Page 6 | FinHeaven - Miami Dolphins Forums

Tannehill versus Wilson: Did we draft the right quarterback?

So I'm trying to spin it and you're not?

The measure is strongly correlated with the consensus perceptions of individual QB ability, which gives it validity as a measure of individual performance.

On the other hand, what evidence do you have of its validity as a "team" stat?
Well the most simplistic answer to that would be that you need 2 players to complete a pass, but on top of that you need blocking(so that's 5 other people), you've got play selection(that's another guy) there are 11 players going against 11 other players on every play and completing a pass involves pretty much every single one of them. Not sure how you could call the cumulated results of all those plays an individual stat...?
 
Well the most simplistic answer to that would be that you need 2 players to complete a pass, but on top of that you need blocking(so that's 5 other people), you've got play selection(that's another guy) there are 11 players going against 11 other players on every play and completing a pass involves pretty much every single one of them. Not sure how you could call the cumulated results of all those plays an individual stat...?
So why does the statistic (YPA) correlate so strongly with the consensus perceptions of individual QB ability, regardless of those other variables? Why isn't it high only for QBs who benefit from those other variables, and low for QBs who do not, regardless of their individual ability? In other words, why is it so strongly correlated with individual ability, while being independent of those other variables?
 
Well the most simplistic answer to that would be that you need 2 players to complete a pass, but on top of that you need blocking(so that's 5 other people), you've got play selection(that's another guy) there are 11 players going against 11 other players on every play and completing a pass involves pretty much every single one of them. Not sure how you could call the cumulated results of all those plays an individual stat...?

Dude get over it. Every personal stat in a team sport except for baseball is linked to other players and coaches. Hell a goal in soccer is dependent on a set piece from an inbounds action and an assist or even 3 passes to make it happen.

You can make a case like this for every individual stat there is. Including rushing yards per attempt. Hell why is Trent Richardson averaging 2.8 yds per carry since joining the Colts while Donald Brown is averaging 5 yards per carry in the same time period?

YPA is completely valid for a QB. It can't be the only measurable. But go look at Peyton Mannings career YPA and you will see when you compare it to a Cleo Lemon YPA. Good QBs have a solid YPA and this stat factors into their overall QB rating.

Wilson has a 108 rating and an unheard of 8.76 YPA. Tanny has an 83 rating and 6.91 YPA. Watch both of them with your eyes and you will see Wilson is way ahead. It's a valid stat.
 
So while I agree with you that the team needs to run more, I'm not under the illusion that Ryan Tannehill would be performing any better on the basis of it.

Do you think Tannehill's performance would be improved if we were consistently running the ball effectively?
 
Alex Smith 6.22
Andrew Luck 6.68
Joe Flacco 6.83
Geno Smith 6.90
Ryan Tannehill 6.91
Tom Brady 6.94
 
Do you think Tannehill's performance would be improved if we were consistently running the ball effectively?
No, because the correlation between Tannehill's YPA and the percentage of the Dolphins' offensive plays that are runs, while partialling out the variance associated with yards per carry, is meaningless (0.13). Same thing for the correlation between YPA and yards per carry, while partialling out the variance associated with the percentage of offensive plays that are runs (-0.05).

Same thing happens when you use QB rating instead of YPA, although one of the partial correlations is a bit stronger (0.32).

Tannehill's performance is independent of running game variables. They have nothing to do with each other.
 
Well, I always prefer the conventional path and early excellence. I've emphasized that countless times. You can score big when early excellence is later devalued.

Russell Wilson had 17 touchdown passes and 1 interception as a freshman at North Carolina State in 2008. That's not a typo. I remember when he ran all around the Canes in a pick-em game at the end of the season, totally befuddling the defense.

Ryan Tannehill in 2008 as a freshman at Texas A&M threw one pass. A year later, when Wilson threw 31 touchdown passes as a sophomore, Tannehill was trusted to throw 8 passes period.

Now, there are two ways to look at that. This forum, and Dolphin fans in general, prefer the version that Tannehill will catch up and perhaps eclipse Wilson once he gains experience. The way I always look at it is that there was a reason one guy was a star and the other couldn't find the field. Everything tends to drift back to the beginning. Happy adjustments fail. I never understand the popularity of happy adjustments. After they flop so often you would think the concept would lose value. Nope. The BCS idiocy of the past 15 years or so only adds to it. That system is based on adjustment, the so-called strength of schedule. Every goof thinks he can throw away the basic indications and wildly adjust based on strength of schedule. That same concept is transferred everywhere. It lends itself to vastly inferior sports analysis than my youth. After all, in that era you still had fans with a background in horse race handicapping, where the dilemma of class or speed presents itself in every race.

Wilson obviously was devalued based on height. That was a uniquely challenging variable. I heard the NFL Network analyst Daniel Jeremiah say yesterday that the room groaned in unison at the Senior Bowl when Wilson measured barely above 5-10. Everyone was expecting tighter to 6 feet. Jeremiah said he dropped Wilson one round based on height alone. But Jeremiah also provided an anecdote, that Wilson asked for his phone number after the Senior Bowl interview and quickly texted Jeremiah, who scouted for the Eagles at the time. Wilson emphasized that he would lead the Eagles to Super Bowls if they drafted him. Personality wise, there is no comparison between Wilson and Tannehill, IMO. Tannehill could not be more robotic and boring in the Dolphin 5th Quarter shows. Only when the Martin situation surfaced did Tannehill make a positive impression behind the mike. I'm convinced Jeff Ireland never places enough emphasis on basics like that, how sharp and inquisitive a guy comes across during interviews. Not knowing the divisions would have been a red flag for me. You're going to fall behind your peers with ignorance like that.

Back to the question, I think we took the wrong guy. I love ideal variance of pace and loft, along with early excellence.

There were at least a couple of guys on Dolphin forums who campaigned before the draft for a combo of Luke Kuechly in the first round and Russell Wilson in the second round. Now that's scary. I can't remember if it happened here or on another site. Perhaps in the comments under the Draft Winds columns. I know I saw it somewhere.

BTW, the least surprising offshoots of quarterback draft 2012 are Robert Griffin's inept pocket and traffic instincts, and his often questionable comments and attitude when things aren't going well. I can't believe so many fans and analysts are surprised by either one. They were a staple of his game at Baylor dating to his freshman year. All you had to do was pay attention. I mentioned them more than once in scouting reports prior to the draft. Griffin's recent digs are no different than the whiny remarks after twice losing to Connecticut, or when Illinois pushed him around in a bowl game, or his conduct when Oklahoma State was abusing him in the first half during his final season. It's still difficult for me to believe that Griffin was named such an upstanding guy with a perfect personality for the position. That describes Andrew Luck. Griffin is erratic at best.

I heard recently that the Eagles planned on taking Wilson in the third but had to go to the plan B and take Foles after Seattle snatched him. Maybe we should look into hiring one of their scouts as our next GM.

I know I wanted the Keuchly/Wilson combo. I don't follow college ball, I do all of my scouting through youtube videos and Wilson's highlight reel was the best I've ever seen by far and that was just one seasons worth. Wilson is doing things that have never been done in the NFL as far as passer rating goes and if the odds on Seattle winning the SB weren't so pitiful I would bet a nice little chunk on Seattle right now.
 
Is anyone with any level of seriousness trying to argue that the difference in success of the Seahawks vs the Dolphins comes down to the quarterbacks? One guy has a powerful running game and stellar offensive line where the other guy has those units at the bottom of the league.
 
Lynch, great Defense, Insane home crowd, and those weapons on offense.

The question should be, put in Wilson with the Dolphins and Tannehill with the Seahawks then try to see who does better.
 
Is anyone with any level of seriousness trying to argue that the difference in success of the Seahawks vs the Dolphins comes down to the quarterbacks? One guy has a powerful running game and stellar offensive line where the other guy has those units at the bottom of the league.

The Seahawks have one of the worst o-lines as well, didn't they lose both starting tackles? Lynch is an ****ing animal though.
 
Wilson is playing very well and at this point is the best QB from that draft. But he is not asked to carry the offense the way that RT is. Obviously we can't switch the QBs but what RT has shown thus far is an indicator that the Shehawks would be fine with him at QB.

Let's not forget the most important stat in the debate:

RT - 1
RW - 0
 
Wilson is playing very well and at this point is the best QB from that draft. But he is not asked to carry the offense the way that RT is.
Unfortunately, however, the extent to which Ryan Tannehill is asked to carry the offense is unrelated to his performance.
 
Unfortunately, however, the extent to which Ryan Tannehill is asked to carry the offense is unrelated to his performance.
For a guy that lives and dies by a stat line I'm surprised to hear this from you.
 
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