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The Elite Discussion

DuderinoN703 said:
No way to know for sure. Yes Belichick and company won 11 games in 2008 without him. With Garrapolo/Brisett they went 4-0. Is that all on Belichick? No. Some absolutely.
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Special type of Coaches can do that for a team. In all the years I watched the Shula coached Dolphins, I always knew, that no matter who the next few opponents would be after a loss, it was almost a given that Miami would not lose the following weeks, and same thing happened to teams coached by Landry, Lombardi, among others.

I agree with you that players do have something to do with it, but good coaching goes a very long way, considering a team with good coaching, but average talent will normally be more successful then a team with good talent but average coaching. Consider all the Patriots backs...
Cassel, Hoyer, Mallett, before Garrapolo. Each when give their shot looked like they could be quality starting Qbs, but outside of the Patriots, Cassel and Hoyer proved to be at best OK, and Mallett, not so much. Garrapolo could be the exception, but might also be yet another QB that was made to look better with great coaching.
 
tay0365 said:
Special type of Coaches can do that for a team. In all the years I watched the Shula coached Dolphins, I always knew, that no matter who the next few opponents would be after a loss, it was almost a given that Miami would not lose the following weeks, and same thing happened to teams coached by Landry, Lombardi, among others.

I agree with you that players do have something to do with it, but good coaching goes a very long way, considering a team with good coaching, but average talent will normally be more successful then a team with good talent but average coaching. Consider all the Patriots backs...
Cassel, Hoyer, Mallett, before Garrapolo. Each when give their shot looked like they could be quality starting Qbs, but outside of the Patriots, Cassel and Hoyer proved to be at best OK, and Mallett, not so much. Garrapolo could be the exception, but might also be yet another QB that was made to look better with great coaching.
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I think you and I could play for NE and we'd win. BB has a big part in that. I also believe there's some sort of weird magic spell going on up there that just makes them win no matter who is on the team.

The hope is that one day they'll be **** again. Long time coming.
 
tay0365 said:
Brady is good...great, but I think Belichick is a little more instrumental to the success with NE, then Brady. Put another head coach on the Patriots, and Brady does not have that type of success, but it seems every time Brady goes down or is suspended, Patriots still continue win.

Though each and every SB that has been won by the Patriots does have either some type of controversy or some lucky mistake to help them win, Bill proved to be a big reason to get that far.
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Pair Brady with an average coach, like Tomlin or McCarthy and pair Belichick with an average QB, like Alex Smith or Andy Dalton and they still win 5 SuperBowls between them I think Brady gets 4 to Belichicks 1.
 
finmann said:
Marino was elite and so was Shula(no SB rings)......you might want to add a elite defense as well.
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Well he did say defense had to be average or good at least...cant recall Marino having a good defense, average maybe a discussion for those paying closer attention than i was to defense back then.
 
roy_miami said:
Pair Brady with an average coach, like Tomlin or McCarthy and pair Belichick with an average QB, like Alex Smith or Andy Dalton and they still win 5 SuperBowls between them I think Brady gets 4 to Belichicks 1.
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Serious question: What skill sets make you think would Brady function in Haley's or McCarthy's offense? And how would you tailor their schemes to fit Brady?
 
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There is no exact science. Elite units are more important than any elite players. If you have to choose between elite offense or defense it seems defense wins every time. See Seattle v Denver, Denver v Carolina, NYG v Pats, TB v Oakland, etc etc... Most of those elite defenses had 2-3 elite players, and good supporting cast.
 
Barry Switzer, recognized as a very average coach at best, is the perfect example of how players matter. That Dallas team was absolutely loaded with Jimmy Johnson draft picks. I never thought Johnson was a great coach, but he did put together a team with a lot of elite talent there and won two super bowls.

For the Dolphins, the team won two super bowls when they had elite talent in the early 1970's. They made it to two super bowls with mostly good talent in the early 1980's. In the 1990's the talent was mostly average and that showed in the standings. Dan Marino was elite and he certainly carried some of those teams.

So you do need talent to win, obviously. I'm just wondering, on average, how many elite players make up most super bowl winning teams?
 
SF Dolphin Fan said:
Barry Switzer, recognized as a very average coach at best, is the perfect example of how players matter. That Dallas team was absolutely loaded with Jimmy Johnson draft picks. I never thought Johnson was a great coach, but he did put together a team with a lot of elite talent there and won two super bowls.

For the Dolphins, the team won two super bowls when they had elite talent in the early 1970's. They made it to two super bowls with mostly good talent in the early 1980's. In the 1990's the talent was mostly average and that showed in the standings. Dan Marino was elite and he certainly carried some of those teams.

So you do need talent to win, obviously. I'm just wondering, on average, how many elite players make up most super bowl winning teams?
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There are 3 coaches in football history that have won both a National Championship and a Super Bowl. Care to guess?
 
Sons Of Shula said:
There are 3 coaches in football history that have won both a National Championship and a Super Bowl. Care to guess?
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I know Switzer was one. Don't know if that makes him a great coach or not, but perhaps he was underrated. Pete Carroll I believe won an NCAA Championship with USC and, of course, won a super bowl with Seattle. Am I 2 for 3? Can't think of the other.
 
SF Dolphin Fan said:
I know Switzer was one. Don't know if that makes him a great coach or not, but perhaps he was underrated. Pete Carroll I believe won an NCAA Championship with USC and, of course, won a super bowl with Seattle. Am I 2 for 3? Can't think of the other.
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Correct. The third (or rather the first to do it) was Jimmy Johnson - Miami Hurricanes and Dallas Cowboys (x2)
 
roy_miami said:
Pair Brady with an average coach, like Tomlin or McCarthy and pair Belichick with an average QB, like Alex Smith or Andy Dalton and they still win 5 SuperBowls between them I think Brady gets 4 to Belichicks 1.
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Disagree
 
Vaark said:
Not elite yet, but there's no denying that, like they say: "the arrow is pointing up!"
(movin' on up to the East Side..)

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Looks great, but what does it mean? What's their criteria?
 
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