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The Pach's 2021 Quarterbacks (Underclassman)

Awsi Dooger

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j-off-her-doll makes some interesting points. We most likely will not see a pick this high again in the next decade (assuming we stay at 3). QB is the most important position and the chances of getting it right increase with another blue chip prospect. While the 3rd pick isn't free, it seems like a luxury pick for a 10-11 win team. I am not advocating the pick of a quarterback at 3, but the front office should think about it, right? We have seen this franchise with a top quarterback (Marino) and without one (since Marino). We all hope Tua is that guy.

Completely hypothetical since there is no way to know this right now...but if Tua ends up being a top 12-15 quarterback in the league and a kid like Wilson is a top 5 quarterback in the league, do you make that pick? This probably isn't a great comparison because I am just throwing some names out regardless of where they were drafted, but if you drafted Matt Ryan, would you double down and draft Aaron Rodgers the following year.

I know there are so many layers to this decision like salary cap, who gets playing time, qb controvery and its effect on team dynamics, etc. J-off should start a new topic on this. I would be curious to see people weigh in on this.
I don't think there are many layers. There is irrational fear and there is logic. j-off-her-doll described the way you are supposed to look at it...if Tua is 50% to hit big then you boost your odds to hit big with another guy who is also 50% or thereabouts.

I've argued this type of thing for years, including when the Redskins and Giants were picking ahead of us last year. Were they really going to settle for Dwayne Haskins and Daniel Jones? Now one is already gone and you can argue the other franchise is actually in worse shape because it seems intent on Jones and his annual 6.5 YPA. Daniel Jones has to be the only quarterback in modern history who has never managed 7 YPA in any season -- college or pro -- yet continues to be named starter when healthy. Maybe those franchises are thrilled with the two linemen they took. I would not be. Jigsaw puzzles are not pretty at all when the biggest piece is missing. Those early spots should be reserved for players who score points, as Bill Polian has insisted.

That's even more true now, with scoring way up across the league. Although I think some of that was due to no fans, and therefore more of a practice type of environment. Fans amp up defensive intensity.
 

Awsi Dooger

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I have to eat crow on Fields, after watching him this past weekend against Clemson my opinion has changed on him. It may have been clouded due to the preferential treatment Ohio State has been getting all season from the CFB committee.
Fields has a long delivery and also doesn't process very fast. Normally the NFL punishes that combo. But as described last offseason NFL defenses don't punish as much as previously. I struggle to get out of my head the long term realities as compared to current.

Ohio State has severely underachieved the past six seasons. That program and not Clemson should have been the annual stumbling block for Alabama. It began when Urban Meyer screwed up with overboard belief in JT Barrett. But even after that aspect was gone it is still obscene that Ohio State has not been in the title game for so long, given the caliber of rosters. Fields is massively more athletic and legitimate than Haskins. But I can't ignore how friendly that system is to quarterbacks, creating separation downfield especially when the interior offensive line is so great, enabling basically 270 yards rushing per game in both seasons with Fields as starter. Of course, Fields is some of that, maybe 40 yards per game. He is running less this season, as j--off-her-doll mentioned.

It would be nice to have a combo of Fields' arm with Tua's mechanics. Really the only aspect of Tua that discouraged me this year was a little bit less zip than I expected, including the big game he had at Arizona. Tua needs to get into an offseason program and also some sophisticated analysis of his body positioning and footwork. That alone can limit zip if flawed.
 

LargoFin

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Ohio State suffered a historic gross injustice by CFB when Urban's last team, with that coaching staff and players and recruits was kept out of playoffs, Which is probably why he called it quits on CFB.
 
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SCOTTY

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Ohio State suffered a historic gross injustice by CFB when Urban's last team, with that coaching staff and players and recruits was kept out of playoffs, Which is probably why he called it quits on CFB.
Urban quit college ball? Thats an impressive rewrite of facts.
 

ckparrothead

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I think what we saw is mostly what Tua is, from a velocity standpoint.

It could improve modestly. But only just so. It's better than Joe Burrow. It's better than Gardner Minshew. It's more or less on par with what Tom Brady and Drew Brees were in their heyday.

But you're never going to look at it and see Justin Herbert, or Drew Lock, or even Kyler Murray or Ryan Tannehill. You're not going to see Matt Stafford or Carson Wentz, nor Patrick Mahomes, Josh Allen, Ben Roethlisberger, Aaron Rodgers, or Russell Wilson.

For the rest, mileage may vary.
 

runstuffr

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I've been watching videos and game tape of Wilson, Fields, and Lance. I was and remain a Tua proponent. But, I also saw enough to know that he didn't show what I thought he was capable of. I saw his limitations. Of course, I think an offseason of conditioning, getting stronger, better playbook and playmakers would all potentially result in a much better Tua.

Still, I can't help myself. I'm curious about these other QBs.

After watching several games, I must say, I think I prefer Trey Lance. I'm not an evaluator.

I like his quick feet, especially remarkable given his size. He has good enough speed and is big and strong. Those are all natural strengths.

I can see he struggles to make his reads at times, he has some accuracy issues because he doesn't always set his feet and throw from a proper platform (haha, borrowed that language from folks on here) and his release seems inconsistent. But when he isn't thinking, man, he throws a nice ball with a quick release for a big guy.

His ability to run would help us immediately and offer him an immediate outlet in the NFL -- much like Josh Allen and Russell Wilson. And I think he is built better than Carson Wentz.

He reminds me of younger Dante Culpepper, before his weight gain and knee injury.

I know his competition hasn't been great. He presents a risk. But, so do the other quarterbacks. I just like Lance's moxie and see so much potential.

Curious where other folks have landed on this now that the season is over?
 

ckparrothead

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If Trey Lance is another Daunte Culpepper, and mind you I'm not endorsing that comparison, but if so it would be really ironic for Miami to give up on left-handed Drew Brees for FCS Daunte Culpepper.
 

runstuffr

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If Trey Lance is another Daunte Culpepper, and mind you I'm not endorsing that comparison, but if so it would be really ironic for Miami to give up on left-handed Drew Brees for FCS Daunte Culpepper.
hahah. great point CK. we def need a coordinator who appreciates Tua's strengths

love the podcast with you, simon and alf.

perhaps culpepper is bad comp. maybe josh allen is a better model.

curious as to which of three QBs (Lance, Wilson, Fields) that you prefer?

have a great day
 

ckparrothead

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hahah. great point CK. we def need a coordinator who appreciates Tua's strengths

love the podcast with you, simon and alf.

perhaps culpepper is bad comp. maybe josh allen is a better model.

curious as to which of three QBs (Lance, Wilson, Fields) that you prefer?

have a great day

I don't see Trey Lance as a good comparison for either Culpepper or Josh Allen. I don't think he has that kind of arm, and he doesn't have that kind of body size or strength. He does have an arm, and he does have body size and strength. But he doesn't belong in the superlative categories in either measure.

The way he looks in the backfield throwing the football does remind me quite a bit of a guy from just one year ago, Jordan Love. Lance showed some of the same weaknesses as Love when he played Central Arkansas this year.

He's a good straight line runner, and he can play like an athlete, but he's not got the feet of a running back. I think his predecessor Easton Stick was probably a better runner.

I don't know if he's one of these quarterbacks that can buy a bunch of extra time with his feet and elusiveness, and then have a plan for what he's going to do with that extra time, the ability to make those throws on the move that really turn your head, etc.

For the most part, when he's a scrambler, he's a runner not a passer. That's something that really differentiates him from the likes of Patrick Mahomes, Josh Allen, and Deshaun Watson. Those guys have always loved to buy extra time with their feet in order to hit passes. The more desperate the situation, the more likely they were to not even try and get the ball off with normal dropback timing, almost just intentionally waiting for the scramble because that gives them the opportunity to hit something way down the field.
 

quasi

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I don't see Trey Lance as a good comparison for either Culpepper or Josh Allen. I don't think he has that kind of arm, and he doesn't have that kind of body size or strength. He does have an arm, and he does have body size and strength. But he doesn't belong in the superlative categories in either measure.

The way he looks in the backfield throwing the football does remind me quite a bit of a guy from just one year ago, Jordan Love. Lance showed some of the same weaknesses as Love when he played Central Arkansas this year.

He's a good straight line runner, and he can play like an athlete, but he's not got the feet of a running back. I think his predecessor Easton Stick was probably a better runner.

I don't know if he's one of these quarterbacks that can buy a bunch of extra time with his feet and elusiveness, and then have a plan for what he's going to do with that extra time, the ability to make those throws on the move that really turn your head, etc.

For the most part, when he's a scrambler, he's a runner not a passer. That's something that really differentiates him from the likes of Patrick Mahomes, Josh Allen, and Deshaun Watson. Those guys have always loved to buy extra time with their feet in order to hit passes. The more desperate the situation, the more likely they were to not even try and get the ball off with normal dropback timing, almost just intentionally waiting for the scramble because that gives them the opportunity to hit something way down the field.
Would you have put Tua in that Allen, Mahomes, Watson class of extending plays behind the LOS? He's obviously not the athlete those guys are (especially Allen and Watson), but he has fantastic feet and I felt at Alabama he did show that improvisation that's so important in the modern NFL.

We didn't see much of it this season outside of Tua occasionally making a free rusher miss in the pocket. I don't know if the coaches were trying to deter him from freestyling given his injury history or if he's just not capable when faced with NFL athletes rather than college.
 

ckparrothead

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Would you have put Tua in that Allen, Mahomes, Watson class of extending plays behind the LOS? He's obviously not the athlete those guys are (especially Allen and Watson), but he has fantastic feet and I felt at Alabama he did show that improvisation that's so important in the modern NFL.

We didn't see much of it this season outside of Tua occasionally making a free rusher miss in the pocket. I don't know if the coaches were trying to deter him from freestyling given his injury history or if he's just not capable when faced with NFL athletes rather than college.

He’s like them inasmuch as he scrambles to buy time to hit the big pass. He’s a little bit less athletic than those three though.
 

ckparrothead

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Pach you got thoughts on any of the next class yet?

Was really digging into Carson Strong and I'm pretty intrigued there.

Big arm. He's definitely not a guy that's going to keep hitting the front of the rim. Seems ridiculously accurate, truth be told. The ball placement isn't always perfection but the consistency of his delivering the football to a catchable spot is uncanny. And the deep ball usually ends up on the line and in front of the guy on the run, like I said he's not a guy who undershoots.

The throwing skills are significant but the thing that gets me a little bit more than that is the demeanor. Is it me, or does he just never, ever look panicked? Even when he's getting sacked. It's not that he's got dead feet. They're active, but relaxed.

The way he floats in the pocket and seems to feel everything in advance, never panic, get out of the rush if he can and take the sack if it's a pressure you can't get out of, etc. I know exactly how cliche it is to compare every pocket passer coming out to Tom Brady but I went ahead and checked a video of Brady's first NFL start just to be sure and it's almost a dead ringer.

I'm curious what his personality is in the locker room and in film study. He certainly looks like he studies. But I'd want to know how he gets on with teammates.

Granted this isn't the formula everyone's looking at today. We want the guy who runs a 4.5 or 4.6 and plays sandlot football. But Strong looks like a pretty compelling throwback.
 

Pachyderm_Wave

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Pach you got thoughts on any of the next class yet?

Was really digging into Carson Strong and I'm pretty intrigued there.

Big arm. He's definitely not a guy that's going to keep hitting the front of the rim. Seems ridiculously accurate, truth be told. The ball placement isn't always perfection but the consistency of his delivering the football to a catchable spot is uncanny. And the deep ball usually ends up on the line and in front of the guy on the run, like I said he's not a guy who undershoots.

The throwing skills are significant but the thing that gets me a little bit more than that is the demeanor. Is it me, or does he just never, ever look panicked? Even when he's getting sacked. It's not that he's got dead feet. They're active, but relaxed.

The way he floats in the pocket and seems to feel everything in advance, never panic, get out of the rush if he can and take the sack if it's a pressure you can't get out of, etc. I know exactly how cliche it is to compare every pocket passer coming out to Tom Brady but I went ahead and checked a video of Brady's first NFL start just to be sure and it's almost a dead ringer.

I'm curious what his personality is in the locker room and in film study. He certainly looks like he studies. But I'd want to know how he gets on with teammates.

Granted this isn't the formula everyone's looking at today. We want the guy who runs a 4.5 or 4.6 and plays sandlot football. But Strong looks like a pretty compelling throwback.

I have him as my #3 underclassman quarterback heading into spring - in the same tier with Sam Howell and J.T. Daniels. He's the type of quarterback that appeals to me as you know I'm typically more old fashioned when it comes to quarterbacks and he fits into that mold. I like his poise and pocket mechanics as you eluded to.

The thing that I noticed in 2020 was that he actually improved over his freshman year despite not being able to play with his top receiver and a kid that would've been a Senior in Elijah Cooks. He essentially missed the entire season because of shoulder surgery. Strong never missed a beat with junior Romeo Doubs as his top option, and he chunks the ball a lot for Nevada. The offense runs through him.

If he's able to have both of those receivers available this year - watch out. He could put up a lot of big numbers and Nevada could be in play as one of the top Group of 5 teams and make some noise. Strong has the arm and ability to be a 1st round pick. Decision making and accuracy stand out also.
 
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