Trade possibility?

[The Ghost]

I'll say this again... adding Bowers when you already have Hill and Waddle catching most of their passes in the area on the field where Bowers would work... is not efficient. You would have three players working intermediate and seam routes.
That's a real problem, and it's WHY we don't throw to Tight Ends.

Same could be said for Deebo Samuel and Brandon Aiyuk but that didn’t stop George Kittle from topping a 1000 yards. It’s called balance and the glaring hole on the offense is the TE position.

Hill, Waddle and Bowers can attack all three levels of the defense.

We didn’t throw to the TE because Durham Smythe was the TE.

I am not sitting here advocating for a trade up to get Bowers or anything but I can’t comprehend how the weakness of the offense is such after thought to so many, especially when you look at the leagues best offenses.

This offense struggles on 3rd and short passing situations and the solution for that is what? More bubble screens? There’s a reason KC was able stop this offense twice.

Even the great Colts offense of the early 2000’s didn’t pop off until Dallas Clark joined Harrison, Wayne and James. Manning went from a guy averaging 28-29 TDs to having 49 TDs.

 

[Feverdream]

Same could be said for Deebo Samuel and Brandon Aiyuk but that didn’t stop George Kittle from topping a 1000 yards. It’s called balance and the glaring hole on the offense is the TE position.

Hill, Waddle and Bowers can attack all three levels of the defense.

We didn’t throw to the TE because Durham Smythe was the TE.

I am not sitting here advocating for a trade up to get Bowers or anything but I can’t comprehend how the weakness of the offense is such after thought to so many, especially when you look at the leagues best offenses.

This offense struggles on 3rd and short passing situations and the solution for that is what? More bubble screens? There’s a reason KC was able stop this offense twice.

Seriously disagree...

Hill and Waddle are both weak in both the redzone and on the sideline... oh, they catch a few passes there, but they don't scare anyone.
Both men thrive on separation... not size, not jumping, not great hands (which neither has).

They can go deep, but not very often... where they win is RAC on short and intermediate passes. This isnt about TE or WR, it is about area of the field... and the area on the field where these two thrive is short, middle, and inside.

 

[The Ghost]

Seriously disagree...

Hill and Waddle are both weak in both the redzone and on the sideline... oh, they catch a few passes there, but they don't scare anyone.
Both men thrive on separation... not size, not jumping, not great hands (which neither has).

They can go deep, but not very often... where they win is RAC on short and intermediate passes. This isnt about TE or WR, it is about area of the field... and the area on the field where these two thrive is short, middle, and inside.

They thrive anywhere what are you talking about?

Waddle averaged 44 yards per TD scored in college, do you really think his biggest asset isn’t stretching the field?



Waddle is No.17 in case you weren’t aware.

I think your misinterpreting our 2023 season in which couldn’t pass block for more than 2 1/2 seconds and instead needed to throw shorter passes.

The further away from the LOS you get Waddle and Hill the better. The field is 53.33 yards across, there is plenty of room to attack it all with those two and a premium TE.

Again, our biggest problem on offense was being stifled on the short and intermediate routes on obvious 3rd down passing situations. The answer to that isn’t more of the same.

It’s to create mismatches with the safeties and LBs so Waddle and Hill can do what they are designed too, stretch it deep.

Couple all that with the fact that Tua’s weakness is the intermediate and short throws, having smaller targets is less than ideal. Tua is designed to throw deep.

His intermediate and short targets need to be bigger players. Smythe can’t run and Gesicki couldn’t catch a pass with a defender on him.

Feel free to start a thread on here telling everyone else Waddle and Hill are not designed for deep routes. I beg you.

Our worst offensive plays of the season came on third and short passing situations. Pure disasters when the other team knew we needed to pass on third short.

 

[Feverdream]

They thrive anywhere what are you talking about?

Waddle averaged 44 yards per TD scored in college, do you really think his biggest asset isn’t stretching the field?



Waddle is No.17 in case you weren’t aware.

I think your misinterpreting our 2023 season in which couldn’t pass block for more than 2 1/2 seconds and instead needed to throw shorter passes.

The further away from the LOS you get Waddle and Hill the better. The field is 53.33 yards across, there is plenty of room to attack it all with those two and a premium TE.

Again, our biggest problem on offense was being stifled on the short and intermediate routes on obvious 3rd down passing situations. The answer to that isn’t more of the same.

It’s to create mismatches with the safeties and LBs so Waddle and Hill can do what they are designed too, stretch it deep.

Couple all that with the fact that Tua’s weakness is the intermediate and short throws, having smaller targets is less than ideal. Tua is designed to throw deep.

His intermediate and short targets need to be bigger players. Smythe can’t run and Gesicki couldn’t catch a pass with a defender on him.

Feel free to start a thread on here telling everyone else Waddle and Hill are not designed for deep routes. I beg you.

Our worst offensive plays of the season came on third and short passing situations. Pure disasters when the other team knew we needed to pass on third short.

You are COMPLETELY missing the point.

Waddle and Hill are EXCELLENT at running deep routes... but this is not a staple of the X reciever definition. Deep routes run by 4.35 speedsters are the hallmark of a Y receiver.

Your X is generally a big bodied guy who you can hit on sidelines or the endzone... and neither Hill, nor Waddle is that guy. Indeed, in your argument, you tried to argue for better blocking so they could get even MORE open.

Separation is the mark of both a Y and a slot WR. Get open quick... catch the ball and outrun... they are GREAT at that.

What they aren't especially good doing is in traffic stuff. So good teams are flooding the middle zones and saying... go ahead, throw it deep... that's a low % play, even if we don't sack Tua.

I hope this gets through.

 

[The Ghost]

What they aren't especially good doing is in traffic stuff. So good teams are flooding the middle zones and saying... go ahead, throw it deep... that's a low % play, even if we don't sack Tua.

Which is exactly why you need a change at TE.

They tried with Claypool, Anderson, C. Wilson. The solution isn’t the third WR.

It’s a TE who can beat LBs off the LOS and/or has the speed to run past Safeties.

We can’t trot Durham Smythe out there 80% of the time and think our weaknesses will correct themselves.

We have to change the way we are defended.

WRs rarely have a big impact in the post season for a reason.

 

[Feverdream]

Again... TEs thrive in the spots where Waddle and Hill thrive... inside.

That isn't a need.

 

[EPBro]

For the 6th pick?

I'll be taking a QB, not a TE.

Sign me up ..

 

[Feverdream]

Which is exactly why you need a change at TE.

They tried with Claypool, Anderson, C. Wilson. The solution isn’t the third WR.

It’s a TE who can beat LBs off the LOS and/or has the speed to run past Safeties.

We can’t trot Durham Smythe out there 80% of the time and think our weaknesses will correct themselves.

We have to change the way we are defended.

WRs rarely have a big impact in the post season for a reason.

You are still... still confusing WR types.

Anderson is a career long Y. Lots of deep routes, no toughness.
Wilson... widely understood to be a 'big slot'... more of a slot TE skill-set.
And Claypool... an obvious draft bust.

None of them is a X. You keep saying third WR-- as if that means something. It doesn't.

 

[The Ghost]

You are still... still confusing WR types.

Anderson is a career long Y. Lots of deep routes, no toughness.
Wilson... widely understood to be a 'big slot'... more of a slot TE skill-set.
And Claypool... an obvious draft bust.

None of them is a X. You keep saying third WR-- as if that means something. It doesn't.

And you’ll see that the same things that plagued this offense in 2023 will again in 2024 if Durham Smythe is out there.

 

[kingfin23]

Tyreek has a year left so absolutely not.

 

[Blake the great]

Bowers is beyond Pitts.

 

[Blake the great]

All the best teams in the league have bona fide threats at TE. You can't ignore that fact. It's not just about featuring them, it's about the attention they command and their increased value on third down to extend drives. Mahomes and Kelce kill you 8-9 yards at a time.

If you don't have that threat, its a whole lot easier for defenses to deploy their assets to shutting down two guys. Its not that hard to shut down Waddle and Hill when you have quality players in your secondary and a pass rush.

Guys like Durham Smythe catch passes because defenses allow them to catch passes. Smythe wouldn't make a single play if defenses actually accounted for him so calling him a "capable pass catcher" is hogwash. Every single TE in the league fits that bill by default. Only about 12-15 TE's in the league actually require game planning for.

Brock Bowers would absolutely devastate defenses if he were added to this offense......not that I believe for a second he stands more than a 5% chance of joining this team.

We don't need to the best TE prospect to call it an upgrade. Plenty of guys will fit for a year or two as we are currently behind the 8 ball in terms of draft capital.

Anyone who is unsure whether or not McDaniel wants a TE threat, remember they spent $11M in one year to bring Gesicki back on the tag.

What makes you ASSUME this? Because you believe that much in this unproven rookie? Or because you have seen it with McDaniels offense? Because I haven't seen it. You mentioned McDaniel bringing back Mike G on a $11m one year and Mike G has one of his worst year as a Dolphins. So I don't get how you assume this unproven rookie will drastically impact our offense.

Smythe is the same as jake ferguson, jake ferguson is nothing special but jake ferguson is in a offense that uses TE and therefore he way out produced smythe this year in his first year starting.


If you can name me two TEs drafted in the 1st round that were home run picks in the last 10 years then i can show you 5 times more TEs that were drafted outside the 1st round that are significantly better than those drafted in the 1st round.

Best case scenario Bowers is TJ Hock who the Lions were able to replace in one off season in the 2nd round.

I guess a lot of people on here are convinced that Bowers is the greatest TE prospect of all time.

 

[Manning]

You can find star players at literally every position that have massively outperformed their draft position.

This isn’t necessarily some failure of scouting … it’s players can develop at different rates, coaching and environment also a huge factor.

How come we never find players that outperform their draft position?

 

[Fred Bear]

I've been open about my thoughts about Waddle. I don't think he is in Hill's league. Until proven otherwise, I think he's a 1b type of reciever. Good between the 20s... and not so much in the red zone.

Very good... not great. Most disagree... but that's where I am.

Nobody is In the league with Hill.
Also Waddle is very good

 

[39wildman]

You can find good TE in 3rd to 5th rd. All other team do it all time.