Tua Tale of the Tape | Page 5 | FinHeaven - Miami Dolphins Forums

Tua Tale of the Tape

Tua played a replace me level qb after the bye week and 2021 home stretch. That’s the tale of the 2021 tape it doesn’t mean it will be the same for 2022 but I do know what the qb can and cannot control in terms of the execution and the ask in that 2021 offense and the bottom line is the qb play in the money closing month of the season was sub par and if not for him being a 2nd year player worthy of replace me status.

Of course Miami has to have a better option and that doesn’t seem to be in the cards anytime soon. It’s just that to date tua hasn’t matched the hype or expectations as an nfl starter. Let alone franchise qb
 
utahphinsfan said:
Has Russell Wilson's height been a hinderance? Hint: Its rhetorical esp when you consider Tua is taller than Rw3
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And the Dolphins have Russell Wilson's old Offensive Coordinator (2012-2017) as their new QB coach/Passing Game Coordinator (Darrell Bevell). If it's a matter of scheming to help a "shorter" QB see downfield, I should think the Dolphins staff would know how to do it.
 
Mach2 said:
That didn't address what I said.

Those are all positive traits but they are also, for the most part, unquantifiable and at least partly subjective except for " quick release" which can be measured. The problem with that is quick release by itself is meaningless. Its value is defendant upon many other things.

What I asked was that if you have two QBs that are equal in all the intangibles but one is a freak physical specimen while the other is average, which player are you going to take? I understand why you avoided answering directly, but you can't honestly say you would pick the lesser athlete.

I wasn't replying to promote any agenda. I was just answering your statement, and pointing out why media pundits put emphasis on the things that they do.

Take a look at some lists out there of top 10 QBs of the 21st century. Regardless of whether you agree with the order, or even some of the selections, they all have something in common. 8 big strong guys and two smallish guys (Wilson and Brees). Now it isn't an insult to anyone to point out the reality that is an 8:2 ratio. Put your fandom bias aside for a moment and look in a purely historic perspective. I as a Dolphin fan or even a football fan in general, really dislike some of the QBs that are widely considered top QBs, but the reality is big stronger armed guys have had more success overall than smallish average armed QBs. That isn't even arguable, IMO.

Now, you can "weight" it any way that you care to make a case for what you believe is the order of importance of QB attributes. That doesn't change what has been historically true a greater percentage of the time.
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Mach You most certainly can gauge all the things I mentioned from an evaluation standpoint..also I’m not sure what you consider intangibles? To me that’s work ethic and leadership
 
djphinfan said:
Mach You most certainly can gauge all the things I mentioned from an evaluation standpoint..also I’m not sure what you consider intangibles? To me that’s work ethic and leadership
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You still haven't answered the question.

Two QBs are equal in every aspect you listed. One is 6'4", with a canon and 4.5 speed and a great overall athlete. The other is 6'0" average in his physical attributes.

Which one do you want?

You are starting to take this exchange completely out of the original context, which was that you don't understand why media pundits and talking heads focus on the things that they do.

I was just explaining the likely reason they do that. I was in no way arguing that any particular QB can't be successful unless he is a big strong armed guy. Only that those guys do in fact have an advantage over those that do not have those characteristics, all other things being equal. To argue otherwise is just nonsense.
 
Mach2 said:
Two QBs are equal in every aspect you listed. One is 6'4", with a canon and 4.5 speed and a great overall athlete. The other is 6'0" average in his physical attributes.

Which one do you want?

You are starting to take this exchange completely out of the original context, which was that you don't understand why media pundits and talking heads focus on the things that they do.

I was just explaining the likely reason they do that. I was in no way arguing that any particular QB can't be successful unless he is a big strong armed guy. Only that those guys do in fact have an advantage over those that do not have those characteristics, all other things being equal. To argue otherwise is just nonsense.
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well sure if all and I mean all things are equal, then sure take the bigger guy..but that wasnt the point, I was saying that a bigger guy who has a better arm doesn’t get the nod iver the things I mentioned

My take is that the media doesn’t look at the finer details of Qb’ing.
 
djphinfan said:
well sure if all and I mean all things are equal, then sure take the bigger guy..but that wasnt the point, I was saying that a bigger guy who has a better arm doesn’t get the nod iver the things I mentioned

My take is that the media doesn’t look at the finer details of Qb’ing.
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I would agree that the media sometimes gives a big benefit of doubt in some situations, Mac Jones for example. For the most part though, they sing the praises of successful QBs like Rogers, Brady, Mahomes, etc. You know, the ones that have actually accomplished something in the NFL?

I don't see them gushing over Carr, or Daniel Jones, for example.

I can't help but wonder if your whole issue is with the fact that they have questions about Tua. I carefully avoided going there, because I was approaching it from a philosophical approach, rather than make it about any individual.

Look, my favorite QB of all time was Joe Cool. Not a particularly big guy. No canon arm. No passing titles. Just a guy that had, perhaps, the greatest command and understanding of his offensive scheme and design. Thing is, he didn't get the accolades either, until he won games on 4th quarter drives, or matching the best in the game score for score in a shootout, or completely destroying playoff opponents on a regular basis.

If you want Tua to get that kind of respect, he has to actually do something in the league. You seem to take it personally that he doesn't. Why you even care what others think I have no idea, but IMO he's just another young QB until he proves otherwise, which is basically the same stance those pundits take for the most part. I don't see the problem with that.

Now, there are butt wipes that go out of their way to bash the kid, but most of them are either idiots about most of what they spew regardless of the subject, or they have a bias for whatever reason.
 
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Mach2 said:
I would agree that the media sometimes gives a big benefit of doubt in some situations, Mac Jones for example. For the most part though, they sing the praises of successful QBs like Rogers, Brady, Mahomes, etc. You know, the ones that have actually accomplished something in the NFL?

I don't see them gushing over Carr, or Daniel Jones, for example.

I can't help but wonder if your whole issue is with the fact that they have questions about Tua. I carefully avoided going there, because I was approaching it from a philosophical approach, rather than make it about any individual.

Look, my favorite QB of all time was Joe Cool. Not a particularly big guy. No canon arm. No passing titles. Just a guy that had, perhaps, the greatest command and understanding of his offensive scheme and design. Thing is, he didn't get the accolades either, until he won games on 4th quarter drives, or matching the best in the game score for score in a shootout, or completely destroying playoff opponents on a regular basis.

If you want Tua to get that kind of respect, he has to actually do something in the league. You seem to take it personally that he doesn't. Why you even care what others think I have no idea, but IMO he's just another young QB until he proves otherwise, which is basically the same stance those pundits take for the most part. I don't see the problem with that.

Now, there are butt wipes that go out of their way to bash the kid, but most of them are either idiots about most of what they spew regardless of the subject, or they have a bias for whatever reason.
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Just projecting, thats all, I always seem to care what’s being said when it isn’t what I believe is to accurate..

Tua was thrown into a situation where he was not physically or mentally ready for…

The media once again thought he was ready because he was such a great college Qb, but in Tua’s case, that game wasn’t gonna transfer immediately..

He’s just not wired like that imo, and he wasn’t ready physically for the demands of the position, his confidence was shot.

A rookie Qb Dealing with a bad injury rehab while trying to learn from a vet and coordinator who had not designed an offense for him, and the worst online in the game goes against every good sound philosophy out there when it comes to developing a Qb.

Confidence is key and Tua completely lost his, but that didn’t matter to the previous staff, they had their own agenda
 
djphinfan said:
Just projecting, thats all, I always seem to care what’s being said when it isn’t what I believe is to accurate..

Tua was thrown into a situation where he was not physically or mentally ready for…

The media once again thought he was ready because he was such a great college Qb, but in Tua’s case, that game wasn’t gonna transfer immediately..

He’s just not wired like that imo, and he wasn’t ready physically for the demands of the position, his confidence was shot.

A rookie Qb Dealing with a bad injury rehab while trying to learn from a vet and coordinator who had not designed an offense for him, and the worst online in the game goes against every good sound philosophy out there when it comes to developing a Qb.

Confidence is key and Tua completely lost his, but that didn’t matter to the previous staff, they had their own agenda
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That sounds a lot like excuses/reasons, and whether one deems them as valid or not does not alter the reality of his actual performance.

Every highly touted QB coming into the league did so with high expectations, yet the large majority of them never reach the highest level of play. They all had reasons that didn't happen. Now you can say TT's particular set of circumstances were a little different than most. I think most reasonable ppl would acknowledge that to be true, but the fact remains that unless you have some positive bias towards the Dolphins, or even for the individual, looking at it from the outside he isn't a franchise QB until he is. From the "outside", the reasons are irrelevant. It is what it is.

The good news for those who support the kid somewhat blindly (not that that is a bad thing) is that he now has a pretty good set of players around him on offense, and a coach/coaches that most consider top level, creative offensive minds.

We shall see what happens.
 
Mach2 said:
You still haven't answered the question.

Two QBs are equal in every aspect you listed. One is 6'4", with a canon and 4.5 speed and a great overall athlete. The other is 6'0" average in his physical attributes.

Which one do you want?
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The one that is better and more clutch. ;)

Prime example could be Joe Montana, who was a smaller and average in physical attributes type of QB, versus, say, Randall Cunningham.

Cunningham easily could have been part of a title team (or more) on the right team, but was nowhere close to the clutch performer Montana was or near as accurate.

I could care less about physical attributes versus mental attributes, intangibles and the “it” factor.

John Stockton is arguably among the top 2-3 point guards of the past 40 years. His lack of physical attributes didn’t mean a thing.

People get too wrapped up in that stuff.
 
djphinfan said:
I disagree with that narrative that because Tua has better weapons his job is much easier, I believe it takes more talent to facilitate to those talented skill players.

You have to anticipate differently, a higher level, you have to place and position the ball differently with higher level players, that takes more talent.

Your skills have to keep up with their skills

Playing Qb isn’t just about throwing into tight windows..

Try throwing a ball accurately to a 4.3 guy rather than a less talented slower guy.
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A lot of it is timing along with the accuracy. The time he spends with his receiver to build that rappaport will go a long ways for him to take that next step.
 
While Im not necessarily expecting it, I certainly wouldnt be surprised if Tua was top 5 in the league in important efficiency stats next season... He wont be in total yards, McDaniel really likes to run the ball, but total stats dont corelate to winning all that much so no biggie here. Fins just did exactly what they should've done from the get go, build your offense around your QB strengths and protect him...

And it didnt take a rocket scientist to figure what those were, alot of guys have been banging the table for SEP and YAC players to surround Tua as they fit his skillset like a glove. Instead, the previous HC winged the offense and ended up building the worst possible setting for a young QB... Those arent excuses, the Fins had the worst OL in football last season; The Fins receivers, as a group, created the least separation in the NFL; The Fins receivers as a group, were 3rd to worst in the NFL in YAC/rec; Fins RBs as a group, were 2nd to last in yards per carry.

And through all this Tua was average. No idea what Tua's ceiling is but average starter is pretty much his floor, it'd actually be hard to build a worst overall offense than the 2021 Fins, you would legit have to put some thought into it. What he gets now is an offense thats built to create space for receivers and centered around YAC, with players like Hill, Waddle and Mostert on it(and C. Wilson, and C. Edmunds). This is how you go after SBs, whether Tua needs this to succeed is irrelevant because in the end, you need it anyway to contend.
 
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And yet we tagged a flex who is the king of lack of separation. The very definition of it

Miami probably should have verified if it had its qb difference maker before it made a tyreek hill move but if it speeds up the gms way overdue demise and canning so be it. My moneys on he blames the head coach mcdaniel if it don’t go well. After he blames tua of course.

Cause that’s where they will the blame initially. Who cares if the team still doesn’t have a competent right tackle or is depending on a austin jackson to be it.
 
Mach2 said:
That sounds a lot like excuses/reasons, and whether one deems them as valid or not does not alter the reality of his actual performance.

Every highly touted QB coming into the league did so with high expectations, yet the large majority of them never reach the highest level of play. They all had reasons that didn't happen. Now you can say TT's particular set of circumstances were a little different than most. I think most reasonable ppl would acknowledge that to be true, but the fact remains that unless you have some positive bias towards the Dolphins, or even for the individual, looking at it from the outside he isn't a franchise QB until he is. From the "outside", the reasons are irrelevant. It is what it is.

The good news for those who support the kid somewhat blindly (not that that is a bad thing) is that he now has a pretty good set of players around him on offense, and a coach/coaches that most consider top level, creative offensive minds.

We shall see what happens.
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Maybe I am sticking to my initial evaluation too much and am ignoring my beliefs on what I need to see out of a young Qb.

I feel very confident I know his weakness, which is, if his feet aren’t set the play is usually dead.

Imo I think we’re all confident that he had the worst protection in football last year.

That’s not a good combination.

I do have questions about his ceiling and am not gonna hold on after this year if their not answered.. I do believe he needs to be protected for his skillset to thrive
 
As crazy as it sounds and I harp on it all the time, and he finally did it in his last game, but imo the way Tua improves the most is to understand how to cut a defense with your legs..

He won his last game with his legs really so I truly hope for our sake it left an impression, he didn’t really show the awareness all year until that final game

Be a dual threat Qb within context.
 
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