What it took the Browns to "Turn It Around"

[Ray R]

You're making stuff up. There is 1 player that's been on the team that entire time. How is that the 'start of their rebuild'? They also got to year 2 of their rebuild and fire an incompetent coaching staff then fired another incompetent coaching staff along with an incompetent front office so the Dolphins are behind in that they still have the incompetents.

So you can keep playing this "tHe bRoWns rEbUiLds sTaRtEd iN 2015" when there's very few people left from that time to make yourself feel better. That's fine. You do what you gotta do to get through the day. The rest of don't have to play along and know that rebuilds that take longer than 3 years have failed.

Year 1 - Teardown
Year 2 - Plucky Losing Team
Year 3 - Playoffs

They tore it down well, they had the plucky losing team year. In the put up or shut up year, there is dead silence.

I've documented everything I've said with the stats that I based those statements on.

Your the one making stuff up and trying force your rebuild concept as a proof.

It only proves you are wrong and I am right - LOL.

 

[Ray R]

Out of interest here though, have you proven the opposite? Not really. You've arbitrarily decided that a rebuild is denoted by a team having a large number of draft picks. I wouldn't say that's a fact. The large number of picks is a fact, you're decision to call that a point of a rebuild is an opinion. I'd wager it's more correct to say a new staff in place starts the rebuild again to be honest, my own personal opinion. Because FO's / coaching staff will nearly always have differing opinions on talents / schemes to the previous.

All I can say is that there are coaching changes every year, but that those may or may not be rebuilds. If a new coach tries different game planning, is that a "rebuild" or just a change to the status quo. When people on this board say "fire everybody and get a lot of new players", then they are referring to a rebuild, not just a "change in direction".

The only thing close to an absolute correlation to this kind of "rebuild" is when the team shows it's intent by increasing it's draft size, which requires trading (usually good players in order to get some good draft picks) and continue with it. This may or may not occur with a coaching or GM change.

This is what we did three years ago and everyone on this board referred to it as a rebuild - as opposed to simply a coaching change.

I suspect that some posters freely interchange the words which have two different and very real connotations, then precede to try and define what a rebuild is based on only their own opinion with no regards to any factual information, such as an owner saying "we are going to tear it down and rebuild".

 

[Ray R]

Confirmation bias perhaps? Maybe you just don't agree with what they're saying, so you don't think their case is valid.

All I ask for are for those posters to provide some facts to support what they say, not just opinion.

That's what I did and I find poster have ignored those facts and then mad outright false statements. One guy (or gal) said the browns rebuild didn't start until they got Mayfield as QB. I pointed out Mayfield started out with 3 losing seasons - is that the basis of a rebuild? It wasn't until his third coach came in before he had a winning season. How does that corelate with changing coaches are the basis for a rebuild.

What a load of crap.

 

[39wildman]

2016 dolphins offense was exciting too watch. We just dont have players on this team like that. Our defense leaking because we dont stay on field long enough on offense...

 

[Ray R]

Ray im not getting into it because I honestly don't care about the Browns and didn't pay close attention to when they acquired which players.

I know this, they have 2 star RBs in Chubb and Hunt. One of the best pass rushers in the NFL in Miles Garrett, Mayfield is no Hall of Famer yet but he is doing well, they have good corners and a good oline.... oh yeah and they have the best WR we've had in the last 10 years on their team in Jarvis.

If you wanna look at the positives and compair the rebuilds: I hope Phillips turns into Miles Garrett, hope Tua beomes a good QB and hope we find TWO stud running backs & an Oline & good coaching.

Their isn't many comparisons at the moment that's all im saying.

All I'm saying is it appears their rebuild started 6 years ago and I've supported data to support that conclusion. I've never said it stopped and restarted because the data doesn't support other restarts - it does show a series of 4 consecutive seasons with extra large drafts, which is were I concluded the rebuild started.

Is it a surprise that after 4 years of these huge drafts that they have a lot of good players who have developed over the last 3 or 4 years - NO. That's a direct result of their rebuilding process, not the start.

Is it a surprise that they kept on changing coaches to improve - NO. That's a direct result of their rebuilding process just like getting and losing players; it's not a new start.

Just the facts ma'am, just the facts - quit trying to redefine a "rebuild" to support your opinion, just develop an opinion that is consistently supported by the facts and you won't have these problems.

 

[39wildman]

All I'm saying is it appears their rebuild started 6 years ago and I've supported data to support that conclusion. I've never said it stopped and restarted because the data doesn't support other restarts - it does show a series of 4 consecutive seasons with extra large drafts, which is were I concluded the rebuild started.

Is it a surprise that after 4 years of these huge drafts that they have a lot of good players who have developed over the last 3 or 4 years - NO. That's a direct result of their rebuilding process, not the start.

Is it a surprise that they kept on changing coaches to improve - NO. That's a direct result of their rebuilding process just like getting and losing players; it's not a new start.

Just the facts ma'am, just the facts - quit trying to redefine a "rebuild" to support your opinion, just develop an opinion that is consistently supported by the facts and you won't have these problems.

Browns still suck..they might make 6 or 7 team as wild card..they sint going nowhere

 

[Bridgeburner]

I've documented everything I've said with the stats that I based those statements on.

Your the one making stuff up and trying force your rebuild concept as a proof.

It only proves you are wrong and I am right - LOL.

Show me a list of players, coaches and front office staff who were there in 2015 and are still on the team or we can just put this to bed.

Your argument that the Browns started in 2015, but have since gotten rid of pretty much everyone since then so the Dolphins should keep Flores and Grier makes no sense because of some arbitrary data that you decided constitutes the start of their rebuild. Simply because you have put irrelevant facts into your argument does not make it solid. It just means you couldn't find relevant ones..

We'll be waiting for the list of players, coaches and front office staff who remain on the Browns from 2015.

 

[GeauxFins2020]

Browns #Draft Selections Dolphins # Draft Selections
2015 3-13 12 Selections 2019 5-11 6 Selections
2016 1-15 14 Selections 2020 10-6 11 selections
2017 0-16 10 Selections 2021 1-4 (to date) 8

We won 2 more games during Flo's 1st year then the Brownies did the 1st year of their rebuild!
We won 9 more games during Flo's 2nd year then the Brownies did the 2nd year of their rebuild!
We have won more games so far in Flo's 3rd year then the Brownies did the 3rd year after their rebuild started!

We did it with less than 70% of the number of players drafted by the Browns in their 1st 3 years of their rebuild.

So what I said is true.

We are "miles" ahead in our rebuild then the Browns were at the 3rd year in their rebuild.

Come on, I know you can analyze data better then that!

It's not that hard!

Uh....Yeah. No.

 

[GeauxFins2020]

Bottom line here...is one argument is right and one is wrong. You and Easyrider seem to think better days are right around the corner. We blow out Jacksonville, we win those "easy" games coming up, and then "Watch Out, Buffalo!"

I think Flores is in over his head and we are headed for double digit losses.

But I am ok with giving Flores another year. We'll be having the "who is our new coach?" discussion after next season, that's all.

Flores is done. It's just a matter of timing. We can (should, IMO) do it now. Or, we can blame other factors and keep him around for another year...and then fire him. But, he will be fired. Either this year or next, with no appreciable success and go down as another failed Belichick assistant...(O'Brien, Patricia, Judge, the boy OC, and Flores).

 

[LibertineOneThree]

1 of 14 players selected by the Browns in the 2016 draft is still on their roster. That's 7%. The 2016 draft was not a part of the Browns rebuild. It was a disaster and should not be used as an example of how to rebuild a roster.

That makes the Browns 2017 draft as their 'Year 1'. It took them 4 draft classes before they competed in their division. We've had three draft classes and arguably have already competed in our division during the rebuild.

The difference - I'd argue - is the Browns never experienced any clear and obvious regression in those 4 years. It feels like we're amidst that right now, this season. But that remains to be seen ultimately. If you want to compare like-for-like against the Browns, the Dolphins still have the 2022 draft and free agency period in hand before they should be competing.

Irrespective of how unpleasant this season has been to date there is no reason whatsoever why the Dolphins shouldn't be competing at the top end of the division after another draft class and free agency period. Possibly / preferably under a different GM and / or head coach. On that basis... they're still easily on track to keep up with the Browns' rebuild baseline. Easily.

 

[The Beatles]

Baker is better in his commercials than he is on the football field. FWIW

Agreed.

Never understood why people are high on Baker. He’s not bad, but be’s not great.

He’s like Andy Dalton in his Bengals days.

 

[Aquapride]

I think more so than ever before outstanding QB play is needed for an NFL team to be a consistent winner. QB has always been an important position but the modern defensive schemes and highly talented defensive players have cranked up the importance level for an effective QB. Mayfield is definitely a huge part of the Browns success.

 

[Ray R]

Bottom line here...is one argument is right and one is wrong. You and Easyrider seem to think better days are right around the corner. We blow out Jacksonville, we win those "easy" games coming up, and then "Watch Out, Buffalo!"

I think Flores is in over his head and we are headed for double digit losses.

But I am ok with giving Flores another year. We'll be having the "who is our new coach?" discussion after next season, that's all.

Flores is done. It's just a matter of timing. We can (should, IMO) do it now. Or, we can blame other factors and keep him around for another year...and then fire him. But, he will be fired. Either this year or next, with no appreciable success and go down as another failed Belichick assistant...(O'Brien, Patricia, Judge, the boy OC, and Flores).

I've noticed folks look to bring in a new HC as opposed to advancing one of our existing coaches.

Why?

History show's that former HC's aren't always successful, so why just "pick a name" as opposed to advancing one of our current staff. Clearly those posters who complain I wear "aqua colored glasses" have a lot of trouble seeing past a "name brand coach". Don't they know that the supporting staff a coach has is a significant part of their success and any move to our team will entail a significant change in the coaching staff.

Totally New Concept:
Let's develop our coaching staff by advancing some of the staff and replacing others!

Wait a minute, wait a minute, isn't that what Flores has been doing since he came here? Lets give it the time it takes to get it working and not "wail like a baby who doesn't get what they want when they want it".

Let me see :
Draft a lot of players
Develop those players
Bring in better coaches
Develop those coaches
Recognize it can take 6 years or more to get it all together (ref. the Browns)
Pay attention to what is really happening - not what you want to happen instantly.

I wonder how the "Lemmings" will react when the dual HC system starts to show some good results.

I think we all know the "Lemmings" lament by now:
We won, so what, we would have won long ago if they listened to me - LOL
What a load of "self serving tripe"
Imagine trying to define yourself as "football knowledgeable" by claiming "facts not in existence" or improperly defining a word just so your opinion might seem plausible, or just ignoring the facts and even decrying the facts just to make your case.

And they wonder why I call them "Lemmings" - LOL
I can assure you it's better then what they call me - more "proof" that they are RONG - LOL

I think more so than ever before outstanding QB play is needed for an NFL team to be a consistent winner. QB has always been an important position but the modern defensive schemes and highly talented defensive players have cranked up the importance level for an effective QB. Mayfield is definitely a huge part of the Browns success.

Have you considered this:

Outstanding teams make their QB's look good.
No QB, no mater how good, can routinely carry a team on their back - Ask Payton Manning about his time with the Colts.

My last words on this matter (maybe) - LOL:

Good teams make all the players on that team look good, if they just "Do Their Jobs"!

Maybe Belichick was on to something when he told his teams to just "Do your Job".

The rest is up to the coaches and the GM!

None of this should be a surprise for any one who follows and appreciates football!

 

[dirkey]

I've noticed folks look to bring in a new HC as opposed to advancing one of our existing coaches.

Why?

History show's that former HC's aren't always successful, so why just "pick a name" as opposed to advancing one of our current staff. Clearly those posters who complain I wear "aqua colored glasses" have a lot of trouble seeing past a "name brand coach". Don't they know that the supporting staff a coach has is a significant part of their success and any move to our team will entail a significant change in the coaching staff.

Totally New Concept:
Let's develop our coaching staff by advancing some of the staff and replacing others!

Wait a minute, wait a minute, isn't that what Flores has been doing since he came here? Lets give it the time it takes to get it working and not "wail like a baby who doesn't get what they want when they want it".

Let me see :
Draft a lot of players
Develop those players
Bring in better coaches
Develop those coaches
Recognize it can take 6 years or more to get it all together (ref. the Browns)
Pay attention to what is really happening - not what you want to happen instantly.

I wonder how the "Lemmings" will react when the dual HC system starts to show some good results.

I think we all know the "Lemmings" lament by now:
We won, so what, we would have won long ago if they listened to me - LOL
What a load of "self serving tripe"
Imagine trying to define yourself as "football knowledgeable" by claiming "facts not in existence" or improperly defining a word just so your opinion might seem plausible, or just ignoring the facts and even decrying the facts just to make your case.

And they wonder why I call them "Lemmings" - LOL
I can assure you it's better then what they call me - more "proof" that they are RONG - LOL

Have you considered this:

Outstanding teams make their QB's look good.
No QB, no mater how good, can routinely carry a team on their back - Ask Payton Manning about his time with the Colts.

My last words on this matter (maybe) - LOL:

Good teams make all the players on that team look good, if they just "Do Their Jobs"!

Maybe Belichick was on to something when he told his teams to just "Do your Job".

The rest is up to the coaches and the GM!

None of this should be a surprise for any one who follows and appreciates football!

So, if the supporting staff a coach has are responsible for his success... But that coach failed... We should... Promote one of them to hc?

No thanks.

Edit: I think I misinterpreted what you wrote. My bad. Carry on.

 

[Ray R]

So, if the supporting staff a coach has are responsible for his success... But that coach failed... We should... Promote one of them to hc?

No thanks.

Edit: I think I misinterpreted what you wrote. My bad. Carry on.

That would depend on which one we promoted, wouldn't it?

Does this help? - LOL