who should have been the NBA's MvP?! <statistics project> PLEASE LOOK!

[COMEBACKRICKY]

ComebackRicky, what are you using to form your opinion? Since this is for a statistics class, it seems to me you'd have to base your argument on, you know, statistics. You'll probably want to look up things like plus/minus stats, record with and without the player, John Hollinger's PER, etc. The basics like points, rebounds and assists, all by themselves, won't get you very far if it's being based solely on stats, since you need to compare apples to apples as much as possible. Anyway, good luck.

its funny you bring that up. i did the poll in my classes, and i printed out more indepth stats and included short bios and where there teams stands blah blah blah. but for this forum i pretty much said that you guys would already have a formed opinion. so sorry about that. plus there are some great arguments going on here, so if the genral reader reads this they could also form there opinion. the trick is to do it without any bias, and i think im doing okay so far. thanks again guys.
ps. i really do have to mail these results into the nba when I form my conclusion. so dont think your vote doesnt count!

 

[UCFinfan86]

some of you guys are so funny.

If you replace Steve Nash with Cassell or Kidd they might be the 7th or 8th seed, if they make the playoffs at all. Some of you guys are just so anti nash its hiliarous(i didnt even vote for him, i picked lebron).

 

[Boik14]

The only way you can refute that Nash is the MVP is based on stats on the individuals in the poll. Nash wont make a huge difference in scoring alone. Nash makes his difference with the players around him and making them better.

Here's a better project for you. Look at the stats the season before Nash showed up in Phoenix for his teammates and then look up the stats of those players when they got to play with nash. FG%, 3pt%, scoring as a team, assists, and wins all go up. Tim Thomas, Raja bell, Boris Diaw, amare from the 03/04to 04-05 season, Q last year vs this year...look up Dirk, Finley, even Shawn Bradley in dallas, pre and post nash. The guy makes a difference in w's and L's not his own PPG. The only players who wouldnt have gotten better with Nash in Phoenix is Leandro Barbosa (cause Nash would have taken much of his would be PT).

Not only is he hands down the most valuable in the league, hes fun to watch.

 

[Boik14]

Steve Nash has almost the same stats as he did in Dallas. He hasnt increased his skills.
96-97 PHO 65 2 10.5 .423 .418 .824 .2 .7 1.0 2.1 .31 .00 .97 1.40 3.3
97-98 PHO 76 9 21.9 .459 .415 .860 .4 1.7 2.1 3.4 .83 .05 1.29 1.90 9.1
98-99 DAL 40 40 31.7 .363 .374 .826 .8 2.1 2.9 5.5 .93 .05 2.08 2.50 7.9
99-00 DAL 56 27 27.4 .477 .403 .882 .6 1.6 2.2 4.9 .66 .05 1.82 2.20 8.6
00-01 DAL 70 70 34.1 .487 .406 .895 .7 2.5 3.2 7.3 1.03 .07 2.93 2.30 15.6
01-02 DAL 82 82 34.6 .483 .455 .887 .6 2.5 3.1 7.7 .65 .05 2.79 2.00 17.9
02-03 DAL 82 82 33.1 .465 .413 .909 .8 2.1 2.9 7.3 1.04 .07 2.34 1.60 17.7
03-04 DAL 78 78 33.5 .470 .405 .916 .8 2.2 3.0 8.8 .86 .10 2.68 1.80 14.5
04-05 PHO 75 75 34.3 .502 .431 .887 .8 2.6 3.3 11.5 .99 .08 3.27 1.80 15.5
05-06 PHX 79 79 35.4 .512 .439 .921 .6 3.6 4.2 10.5 .77 .15 3.49 1.50 18.8

Right but its the most valuable player award not most improved. MVP is the guy who makes the system work on a good/great team and who makes the players around him better. And there's no one on the suns who hasnt improved from pre nash to with Nash.

 

[Amars]

some of you guys are so funny.

If you replace Steve Nash with Cassell or Kidd they might be the 7th or 8th seed, if they make the playoffs at all. Some of you guys are just so anti nash its hiliarous(i didnt even vote for him, i picked lebron).

What make you think that. Cassell helped the CLIPPERS. THE CLIPPERS get the #6 Seed. Kidd helped the Nets reach the NBA finals and many Eastern Finals so that crap about getting them to be a 7th or 8th is bogus. They will still have a better record then most of teams in the west. It D'Antoni offense that makes everyone better. All these player benefit in playing this style of Bball. The Mavs are doing good without Nash. It funny how you didnt mention Bibby because inserting Bibby in the suns offense you'll get the same results. Im not anti nash i said he's the best pg in the league but I think D'Antoni makes this team better not Nash.

 

[OurHeartAndSoul]

i would say nash had a stronger supporting cast than what lebron or kobe had to deal with. he did eleveate evreyones play however, and thats what i enjoy about him most.

No way other than Marion they really had nobody. And Marion could never have carried them to the playoffs on his own. Take Lebron, Kobe, and Nash away from their teams and none of them make the playoffs. Add them and the Suns are the only one left playing for a championship.

 

[Amars]

Right but its the most valuable player award not most improved. MVP is the guy who makes the system work on a good/great team and who makes the players around him better. And there's no one on the suns who hasnt improved from pre nash to with Nash.

Ya because D'Antoni wasnt the coach. He's only coached the suns for 2yrs.

 

[Amars]

No way other than Marion they really had nobody. And Marion could never have carried them to the playoffs on his own. Take Lebron, Kobe, and Nash away from their teams and none of them make the playoffs. Add them and the Suns are the only one left playing for a championship.

do you remember Amare. I know he hasnt played this year but he did play last year. If he can play next the will be in the finals

 

[Amars]

\And there's no one on the suns who hasnt improved from pre nash to with Nash.

Also most of the player prior nash are not even on the team. Bell, Diaw, Tim Thomas werent even a sun 2 yrs ago and Barbosa was a rookie 2 yrs ago. So this makes no sense.

 

[OurHeartAndSoul]

do you remember Amare. I know he hasnt played this year but he did play last year. If he can play next the will be in the finals

Yes, I was talking about this season only though. I know Amare played a bit this year but he really had no impact other than his first game back.

 

[Amars]

Yes, I was talking about this season only though. I know Amare played a bit this year but he really had no impact other than his first game back.

my badd. well your right about that.

 

[Boik14]

took the easy answer. Nash can be replaced easy. You can throw in Sam Cassel, Jason Kidd or Mike Bibby and the suns will have similiar results. You take out D'Antoni and his style the suns suffer greatly.

Bibby would be the only 1 of the 3 with a prayer to run that offense.

Kidd doesnt shoot a high enough % from the the floor which wouldnt be good in an offense based on effieciency. Plus hes older now and hes not the player he was. He couldnt play an up and down game 48 mins a night, 82 games a year. Even in Kidd's best years im not sure he stacks up with nash because his FG% never comes close which means he got his ppg averge based on volume alone.

Cassell is a half court PG. End of discussion. Even in his prime Cassell wasnt able to play in that kind of offense. Hes neither fundamentally sound enough or as gifted in his court vision. Hes the guy a lot of half court offenses want their PG to be because he can feed the post break down a D and knock down a J. He cannot play an up and down game like Nash can thats based solely upon a guy being able to distribute the ball for layup after layup.

Bibby is young enough to do it but he still has a lot of that shoot first mentality. He, Lebron and Paul are the only guys even capable of doing what Nash does and none are as selfless so the offense couldnt work as well because it would be inherently flawed in that respect. The reason the offense works like it does is because you need a player not interested in his own scoring stats to run it.

 

[Boik14]

Ya because D'Antoni wasnt the coach. He's only coached the suns for 2yrs.

Than explain why all of nashs teammates in dallas improved the same way...

 

[Boik14]

Also most of the player prior nash are not even on the team. Bell, Diaw, Tim Thomas werent even a sun 2 yrs ago and Barbosa was a rookie 2 yrs ago. So this makes no sense.

It makes perfect sense. Look at the stats of the suns players whether they were on the roster 2 years ago or not and compare those stats to their stats now playing with nash. Whether they were on the roster or not is barely relevant. The fact is Diaw goes from Hawks 10th man to a legit factor playing with nash; tim thomas goes from unwanted bum to a near savior, and raja bell goes from all defense to being a nice complimentry scorer.

You can argue "its the coach" all you'd like but you still need the players to execute. To execute an up tempo motion offense you need a PG willing to sacrifice scoring to get his teammates involved and make them better. Thats what an mvp does.

 

[Fresh]

I dont watch Suns Bball but this entire playoffs I have watch every game and I have watch NASH turnover the ball more at the end of close game then anyone I have EVER seen.

My thoughts exactly.

Raja Bell, Tim Thomas, or another player is always the one to bail that team out. From an overall standpoint, Nash is being outplayed by Shawn Marion & Raja Bell this postseason, period.

I haven't seen Nash come up big in the clutch all but maybe once this entire postseason; yet he's turned it over in the clutch DOUBLE-DIGIT times. If Raja Bell doesn't bail that team out with that desperation 3 in game 5, then the Suns are sitting home right now and the Clips are waiting to travel to either Dallas or San Antonio on Tuesday morning.

Truthfully speaking, Sam Cassell has outplayed Steve Nash in this series overall.