Yearly Need vs Value Drafting Debate

[ckparrothead]

The intangibles are what matters at the quarterback position in the NFL. Piss poor intangibles will NEVER overcome exceptional physical skills. Never. Ever.

Ben Roethlisberger and Mike Vick disagree on that point.

I have heard it directly from a coach that has coached Ben Roethlisberger with the Steelers, that Ben is UNCOACHABLE (his words). His own teammates don't really consider him a leader, or a hard worker. There have been reams of stories printed about how much of an a-hole he is off the field, having waiters fired for insisting on proof of age for people out drinking with Ben, etc. Oh and let's not forget he's a rapist.

That guy's working on his third Super Bowl appearance, and I believe his team is favored in this one...

And Mike Vick, well...the guy has ALWAYS been involved in criminal activity (drugs, dog fighting), has NEVER been a hard worker until now (supposedly)...and let's not forget he had a winning record in Atlanta and brought his team to the NFC Championship Game even at a time in his career which he now admits he would commonly take the game tapes his coaches gave him and throw them in his car and just never watch them, never bother even studying up on his opponent before the game.

And for all that, nothing I've seen of Cam Newton, including the weekly work he does with children in the Auburn area...suggests he's even close to as bad as those two.

 

[hoops]

Which one do you think is most likely to cost you your job if you're wrong?

If your ability to bring home a paycheck every week was at stake, which one would you take?

That's what's on the line for most of the GM's in the league when they decide which name to turn in on these cards..

the qb... without question...but your in a way asking us to play it safe...which you were vehemently against with the matt ryan thing...i understand ryan meets more of the parcells commandments for success in a qb or whatever but if dimitroff missed on ryan and he blew chunks you think dimotroff wouldn't at least be in hot water right now???

the only difference i see here is you had a conviction on matt ryan you don't on cam newton...

 

[Pachyderm_Wave]

the qb... without question...but your in a way asking us to play it safe...which you were vehemently against with the matt ryan thing...i understand ryan meets more of the parcells commandments for success in a qb or whatever but if dimitroff missed on ryan and he blew chunks you think dimotroff wouldn't at least be in hot water right now???

I don't really consider drafting Mark Ingram over Cam Newton playing it safe, to me that's just competent drafting, and being intelligent.

You don't EVER pass up the franchise quarterback unless you already have one... period.

I don't view Cam Newton as a franchise quarterback.. it's that simple.

 

[ckparrothead]

If you don't hitch your wagons to a star QB, you will eventually be fired regardless of who you bring in at the other positions. And every year you put off getting a QB increases your chances of being fired exponentially.

 

[MD]

Do you guys honestly see them taking a QB at 15 in what is obviously a make or break year for them? I don't because a rookie QB is not going to have as much effect as a vet if you put the right people around him. Each year they coach for their jobs but obviously this is it for Sparano and quite possibly Ireland. I don't se them trusting a questionable rookie signal caller to save their ***.

 

[Chubby]

If you don't hitch your wagons to a star QB, you will eventually be fired regardless of who you bring in at the other positions. And every year you put off getting a QB increases your chances of being fired exponentially.

This! I have huge issues puting my thoughts in writing, but this is my exact point. Qb is our biggest need, so they need to do everything possible to land the guy at the 1st chance we get.
Chubbs

 

[Pachyderm_Wave]

Ben Roethlisberger and Mike Vick disagree on that point.

I have heard it directly from a coach that has coached Ben Roethlisberger with the Steelers, that Ben is UNCOACHABLE (his words). His own teammates don't really consider him a leader, or a hard worker. There have been reams of stories printed about how much of an a-hole he is off the field, having waiters fired for insisting on proof of age for people out drinking with Ben, etc. Oh and let's not forget he's a rapist.

That guy's working on his third Super Bowl appearance, and I believe his team is favored in this one...

And Mike Vick, well...the guy has ALWAYS been involved in criminal activity (drugs, dog fighting), has NEVER been a hard worker until now (supposedly)...and let's not forget he had a winning record in Atlanta and brought his team to the NFC Championship Game even at a time in his career which he now admits he would commonly take the game tapes his coaches gave him and throw them in his car and just never watch them, never bother even studying up on his opponent before the game.

And for all that, nothing I've seen of Cam Newton, including the weekly work he does with children in the Auburn area...suggests he's even close to as bad as those two.

Mike Vick's lack of intangibles is what got his a** in prison to begin with. Mike Vick's dedication to film study may have changed through all this, but it's not as if he suddenly has intangibles. He's just not as stupid as he used to be.

Intangibles are already there, it's something a guy just has or doesn't have. They're either excellent, average, or poor.... and Vick was never that good of a quarterback in Atlanta to begin with in my opinion. Good athlete, bad quarterback...especially from inside the pocket.

Roethlisberger wouldn't be the 11th overall pick if he had the baggage coming out of college that he has now.

You can have Cam Newton if you want him CK, I promise I won't draft him ahead of you... I'll take my chances elsewhere on this one.

 

[ckparrothead]

This! I have huge issues puting my thoughts in writing, but this is my exact point. Qb is our biggest need, so they need to do everything possible to land the guy at the 1st chance we get.
Chubbs

Credit to Slimm, he's been saying that all along.

 

[hoops]

now here's the part i don't like...slimm has proven to me thru the years that he can evaluate qbs from college to the pros better than anyone else i know pretty much...the results are there

if he says he doesn't like any qb in the first round period other than ryan mallet and thats late in round 1 it bothers me...a lot...cause i know he's not talkin just to be heard he's done an awful lot of study etc to come up with his convictions...

he tried to tell me about matt ryan i didn't buy it he's trying to tell me about cam newton its not working...i'm too ready to take a chance finally

 

[Pachyderm_Wave]

If you don't hitch your wagons to a star QB, you will eventually be fired regardless of who you bring in at the other positions. And every year you put off getting a QB increases your chances of being fired exponentially.

I've been saying this for as long as I can remember....

 

[Chubby]

I've been saying this for as long as I can remember....

Yes, since mid this year I jumped on the badwagon.
Chubbs

 

[Pinkboy]

Do you guys honestly see them taking a QB at 15 in what is obviously a make or break year for them? I don't because a rookie QB is not going to have as much effect as a vet

I look at it differently. Drafting a QB in the 1st could actually save their jobs and put less pressure on them.

they can just say - "hey, Mr Ross, this was a year to develop our rookie QB".

 

[Chubby]

Do you guys honestly see them taking a QB at 15 in what is obviously a make or break year for them? I don't because a rookie QB is not going to have as much effect as a vet if you put the right people around him. Each year they coach for their jobs but obviously this is it for Sparano and quite possibly Ireland. I don't se them trusting a questionable rookie signal caller to save their ***.

No I dont see them doing it because of it, the other side of the argument though is, by selecting a 1st round QB it might buy them an extra year.

Edit: Grey beat me to it.
Chubbs

 

[ckparrothead]

Mike Vick's lack of intangibles is what got his a** in prison to begin with. Mike Vick's dedication to film study may have changed through all this, but it's not as if he suddenly has intangibles. He's just not as stupid as he used to be.

Intangibles are already there, it's something a guy just has or doesn't have. They're either excellent, average, or poor.... and Vick was never that good of a quarterback in Atlanta to begin with in my opinion. Good athlete, bad quarterback...especially from inside the pocket.

Roethlisberger wouldn't be the 11th overall pick if he had the baggage coming out of college that he has now.

You can have Cam Newton if you want him CK, I promise I won't draft him ahead of you... I'll take my chances elsewhere on this one.

I think the fewer "rules" you have, the better off you'll be.

The rule about character and intangibles for instance. That one can be shaped and molded around, so why bother having an explicit rule? Cam Newton doesn't pass muster by that rule but Ryan Mallett and Jimmy Clausen do? Ben Roethlisberger did?

In the end it always comes down to what you feel when you watch the prospects, and what you think of them in general. The facts and evidence, the rules and philosophies, all of that stuff gets twisted and molded, re-shaped in efforts to support that, what you feel when you watch the guy.

You don't like Cam Newton as a prospect. I do. That's what it boils down to.

 

[hoops]

i just think cam newtons a winner...i never got the feel when i watched him that the moment was ever too big for him or that he wouldn't come thru in the clutch and pull out the victory...i think he's a winner and i want that kind of mindset on my team...and i don't get the feeling that he's a bad character kid in the interviews etc that i've heard...

the nat championship game oregon could have taken the lead late there was absolutely no doubt in my mind that cam would have made the plays necessary to win the game...never even crossed my mind that he wouldn't come thru

i can't say that about just about all of these other qb prospects...