Yearly Need vs Value Drafting Debate | Page 5 | FinHeaven - Miami Dolphins Forums

Yearly Need vs Value Drafting Debate

dolfan22 said:
Enjoying reading the discussion.

You say , " What are the odds this kid is going to put in the necessary work it takes day in and day out in the NFL to ever come CLOSE to reaching that ceiling?"

By this , are you saying you don't feel Newton would do this? I agree btw that dedication , hard work and perseverance are intangibles needed for success , especially at the QB position. I don't agree if you are saying he will enter the league with an attitude such as Michael Vick or Vince Young , physically skilled players who felt a sense of entitlement and carried themselves that way , which affected their success level imo.
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Based on what? What makes you think Cam Newton will not enter the league with an attitude such as Michael Vick or Vince Young, physically skilled players who felt a sense of entitlement and carried themselves that way, which affected their success level, in your opinion?

Is it his stellar academic achievements that has you feeling that way? Perhaps the fact that he attended almost every college in the southern part of the United States, because of one scandal or another?

His receiving of stolen property? No kid with a sense of entitlement would actually PAINT HIS INITIALS ON SAID STOLEN PROPERTY SURELY?

What kid who's father pimps him out to various Universities in exchange for money would ever feel a sense of entitlement?

I've seen Auburn's Athletic Director, Jay Jacobs, literally have to come over and make Cam Newton sit down on the bench because he was acting like such an immature idiot on the sidelines because his own coaching staff wouldn't do it.


Ironically, there's enough red flags surrounding Cam Newton to suggest that he could perhaps be the worst case of them all....

I don't get any enjoyment out of watching any of these kids fail if they fall flat on their face, and I hope they all prove their doubters wrong...

...but Cam Newton hasn't left anyone with a helluva lot else to assume.
 
TedSlimmJr said:
Based on what? What makes you think Cam Newton will not enter the league with an attitude such as Michael Vick or Vince Young, physically skilled players who felt a sense of entitlement and carried themselves that way, which affected their success level, in your opinion?

Is it his stellar academic achievements that has you feeling that way? Perhaps the fact that he attended almost every college in the southern part of the United States, because of one scandal or another?

His receiving of stolen property? No kid with a sense of entitlement would actually PAINT HIS INTIALS ON SAID STOLEN PROPERTY SURELY?

What kid who's father pimps him out to various Universities in exchange for money would ever feel a sense of entitlement?

I've seen Auburn's Athletic Director, Jay Jacobs, literally have to come over and make Cam Newton sit down on the bench because he was acting like such an immature idiot on the sidelines because his own coaching staff wouldn't do it.


Ironically, there's enough red flags surrounding Cam Newton to suggest that he could perhaps be the worst case of them all....

I don't get any enjoyment out of watching any of these kids fail if they fall flat on their face, and I hope they all prove their doubters wrong...

...but Cam Newton hasn't left anyone with a helluva lot else to assume.
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He has undoubtebly made some immature decisions , that is not in question. Should he have done things differently? Of course. His father's involvement is not a positive of course , but many highly drafted players have parental situations that are from ideal. I don't know what , if any part Cam Newton had or knew of this or these incidences. I suppose I am taking that at the face value the investigation so far has declared that to be.

I know from a friend that is a former Auburn player and goes to several games a year with his best friend who was also a former Auburn rb , that their impression of him overall , is quite positive. They say he works very hard, that football matters to him , that he seems to be focused on doing things that should be done to improve and get better. Now they haven't "investigated" him but they are both former professional players so they certainly have a sense of what would be telling signs from overall demeanour.

Not a guarantee , but it is first hand observance and if indeed he is that and has more natural ability than VY , works dillegently and keeps a level head , I see a player worth a high draft choice. Yes , speculation partly , but that is what this is, at least in part.
 
I think CK touched on the sticking point for me. He's a better passer than any of the dual threats coming out. With one year of major college experience, he throws the ball better (I feel considerably better) than M. Vick or V. Young. He also has better physical tools for the position than either (I'll take his height and strength in combination with his speed over Vick's pure speed). So, the bust factor - to me - is very low . . . unless you consider better versions of Vick in Atlanta or V. Young busts. Intangibles are different depending on whom you talk to. As a QB, Big Ben has fantastic intangibles. He's a winner, and he's clutch. As a person, not so much . . . In Newton I see a natural leader and a clutch performer. For me, those fall under the umbrella of intangibles. I think he's much better in both categories than Vick or Young. Newton willed a lesser team to a National Championship in a fashion I can't remember. Vick couldn't do the same, and Young had some pretty talented players around him.

Also, to say that Rapeman Ben wouldn't go 11th if his character concerns popped up sooner - to me - proves the point that the criteria is flawed. If I'm not mistaken, he also operated a lot out of the shotgun in college - wasn't what you'd call a pro style offense. I wasn't following the draft with more than a casual interest at the time, so I could be wrong.
 
For the best comparison to Newton I think you'd have to go all the way back to Randall Cunningham, no?
 
i would still take ck over newton, newton takes off if nothing is there, as for ck he checks then he goes if nothing is there, i don't think newton will be a good nfl qb. i would draft ryan williams or mikel leshoure in the first and then draft a ck in the second, if he is there when we pick after the trade down, the thing is finding an ideal partner to trade with so we could land ahead of teams that have a qb already.
 
ckparrothead said:
For the best comparison to Newton I think you'd have to go all the way back to Randall Cunningham, no?
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Interesting comparison. Ala Vick, early on Cunningham was coached to leave the pocket and create if his first read wasn't there. Buddy Ryan and company didn't really bother coaching him how to play quarterback. As in at all. Cunningham fully admitted later in his career he really didn't really know how to read a defense until he latched on with the Vikings and had that magical year with Moss, Carter and co.

It's tough to say what Cunningham could have become had he landed from the beginning with a coaching staff that was interested in developing his throwing skills. He sure had the ability.
 
Mr. Magoo said:
Interesting comparison. Ala Vick, early on Cunningham was coached to leave the pocket and create if his first read wasn't there. Buddy Ryan and company didn't really bother coaching him how to play quarterback. As in at all. Cunningham fully admitted later in his career he really didn't really know how to read a defense until he latched on with the Vikings and had that magical year with Moss, Carter and co.

It's tough to say what Cunningham could have become had he landed from the beginning with a coaching staff that was interested in developing his throwing skills. He sure had the ability.
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Say what you want about Randall Cunningham, he played in the 80's and 90's when QB stats are borderline non-comparable to today's stats....but he was like .612 as a starter and as you say when he was finally taught a little bit about how to play the position, he led what was (at the time) the most prolific offense in the history of the NFL.
 
ckparrothead said:
If I could thank this 100 times I would. Do you think he should always be 1st pick in a Tecmo draft? I think he should.
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Definitely. The Eagles D is good - not as good as the Bears or Giants, but their WR's and RB's are slow as ****. With all that, they're easily the most unstoppable team in the game with QB Eagles. He's the only player in any football game that I've ever played who is literally unstoppable.
 
ckparrothead said:
Say what you want about Randall Cunningham, he played in the 80's and 90's when QB stats are borderline non-comparable to today's stats....but he was like .612 as a starter and as you say when he was finally taught a little bit about how to play the position, he led what was (at the time) the most prolific offense in the history of the NFL.
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He was also well past his physical prime at that point. No telling what he could have done if the right coaches got to him when he was younger.
 
j-off-her-doll said:
If I'm not mistaken, he also operated a lot out of the shotgun in college - wasn't what you'd call a pro style offense. I wasn't following the draft with more than a casual interest at the time, so I could be wrong.
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[video=youtube;V3zdjhIc32Y] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V3zdjhIc32Y[/video]
 
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