Bryant Johnson belongs in Miami...

[2413fanphins]

more the same from the following year when AB, and BJ were in there second year and fitz was a rookie.
boldin was out for 6 games in 04.

2004 G REC YDS YAC TD
BJ 16 49 537 3.3 1
AB 10 56 623 3.0 1
FITZ 16 58 780 3.3 8

again underachieving... I don't know why some value this guy so much.
upside, good hands, runs good routes, size... there are guys just like this in the draft.
I see nothing about this dude, that screams YOU HAVE TO COME SIGN ME.

again, unless he's quite cheap, I say we look elsewhere.

 

[like2god]

judging off last year, he's not a great #2 WR. facts are facts.

unless your going to try and tell me he was getting double teamed all game long.

in the four weeks boldin didn't play in... weeks 4,5,6,,14...BJ was quite average.
fitz was MIA in week 13 so those numbers are included as well.

week
4,5,6,13,14.


REC
4,6,5,6,1

YDS.
40,80,29,56,5

TD.
0,0,0,1,1

that was based off last year alone. I don't really feel the need to dig deeper.
Unless your going to tell me that boldin and fitz, don't run the same routes at BJ or have some really good excuse for me, I am going to have to still stick with my original opinion.
and that is that this dude is an average receiver, who has severely underachieved for a former first rounder.
you can use fitz and boldin as excuses until hell won't have it, but he has had games where he was able to show his value. To me, this dude better come REALLY cheap, cuz if he doens't we are going to be overpaying for another roster spot.

Those numbers don't look any different than what Chambers and Booker have put up around here as #1 WR's.

You're failing to look at the production of the other players on the Cards during that same period of time, there is more to it than just individual

Week 4 against the Steelers
The Cards were playing the tough Steeler D and the Cards offense was very quiet until the 3rd quarter after Kurt Warner replaced a struggling Leinart. The Cards only scored 2 offensive TD's in the game and Fitzgerald was the main focus of the offense with 11 catches for 123 yards 0 TD's. Johnson had a decent game under the circumstances (3 catches 37 yards).

Week 5 against the Rams
The Cards win a close game against the Rams in which the Arizona offense looks alot better. They ran the ball 31 times and the top 2 receivers were Fitzgerald (9/136/1) and BJ (6/80/0). No other Cards WR had more than 3 catches.

Week 6 against the Carolina Panthers
Starter Kurt Warner went down with an injury and was replaced by Tim Rattay. Rattay went 12 for 24 for 159 yards 0 TD's and 3 INT's and the Cards only managed 10 points. Arizona ran the ball 26 times and Fitz led the way with 6/97/0 and BJ had 4/29/0. So you can hardly blame BJ for not producing.

Week 13 against the Browns
In a game where the Cards scored only 2 offensive TD's and Kurt Warner had an average game 18/30 169 2/1, BJ led the way with 6/63/1 and no other Cards receiver had more than 2 catches, which includes Boldin 2/25/0. Arizona ran the ball 27 times and had a defensive TD.

Week 14 against the Seahawks
The Cards were embarrassed by the Hawks 42-21. Kurt Warner threw 5 INT's and was sacked 5 times as the Seahawks led 24-0 in the 2nd quarter. BJ had his only catch of the game scoring the Cards first TD. Playing catchup all game long, the Cards spread the ball around more than they have in the past throwing to 9 different receivers.

So when you look solely at the stats of one player to make your case, you completely ignore the real circumstances that led to him getting those stats. You have to take the whole teams performance into account, not just "oh, he only had one catch, so he gave up and sucks".

 

[like2god]

the fact that boldin came in and put up better numbers than BJ is ABSOLUTELY releveant to me.

Were not talking about barely edging the guy out here, WE are talking absolutely getting dominated across the board by a guy picked up a round later than you.

look at this...

2003 stats

G REC YDS YAC TD
BJ 15 35 438 2.1 1
AB 15 101 1377 5.1 8


So at least judging from that you certainly must agree that he must have been a reach at 17. What about that doesn't say underachiver to anybody?

I completely agree that boldin and fitz are better and not many would be able to unseat them. But Than that also dictates to me, that this guy HAS to come DIRT CHEAP.

what on earth has he done to deserve anything more than vet minimum?

you can have all the upside in the world, you see that with potential draft picks year in and year out. This guy has proven nothing at the nfl level yet.

Again, you are completely misrepresenting the stats. The 2003 Arizona Cardinals were an awful team that finished 4-12. Their starting QB was Jeff Blake who had a terrible year (208/367 2247 yards 13 TD 15 INT) and Boldin was his main target, TE Freedie Jones was his 2nd favorite target with 55 receptions (TE is a safety net for struggling QB's) and they utilized the RB out of the backfield with 33 catches for Marcel Shipp. They were horrible, did you really expect them to have 2 receivers with 100 catches?

BJ has done more than enough to garner a contract that is worth more than the league minimum, the Cards would love to keep him but their hands are tied with redoing Fitz's contract this year and Boldin coming up soon, they simply can't afford him. Johnson isn't going to command Berrian type money this year, but that doesn't mean he sucks. You need to stop looking for instant results and huge stats and understand what teams look for when it comes to talent.

 

[I am Bane]

He has not shown anything to prove he could be more than a "projected" #2 WR. Lets be realistic here, he reminds me of Derrius Thompson. I could flourish on another team but his history to this point is mediocre at best.

then lets sign him as all that.... and see what he can do.

 

[like2god]

more the same from the following year when AB, and BJ were in there second year and fitz was a rookie.
boldin was out for 6 games in 04.

2004 G REC YDS YAC TD
BJ 16 49 537 3.3 1
AB 10 56 623 3.0 1
FITZ 16 58 780 3.3 8

again underachieving... I don't know why some value this guy so much.
upside, good hands, runs good routes, size... there are guys just like this in the draft.
I see nothing about this dude, that screams YOU HAVE TO COME SIGN ME.

again, unless he's quite cheap, I say we look elsewhere.

Again you misrepresent the stats.

The 2004 Arizona Cardinals were a bad team that finished 6-10. Their offense was ranked 26th in the NFL and their starter Josh McCown had an awful year (233/408 2511 yards 11 td's and 10 INT's), what part of that screams high powered offense???

Another thing you fail to mention is that in the very same year that BJ had 49 catches for 537 yards, Boldin had 56/623, Fitz finished with 58/780 and Freddie Jones had 45/426. Looks to me like they spread the offense around pretty evenly, no?

Using individual stats in this case is intellectually dishonest, you have to take the whole offense into account in order to understand an individuals numbers.

 

[2413fanphins]

You need to quit putting words into my mouth.

two posts in a row you say that I said he sux now.

thats not true. I challenge you to find anywhere in my posts where I said BJ sucks.

I may have questioned his motivation, and I didn't really even do that, I asked whether he was motivated or not. I didn't say this dude is obviously not motivated.
I certainly never said he sux.


Your grasping for straws a bit. Taking into account running plays, and defensive td's is nice. But I was simply comparing numbers from WR to WR.
You could make case for any underachieving WR in the league, if you broke down every game and said the D did this, and the running game was that.

He hasn't lived up to first round potential yet, bottom line. Regardless of factors such as boldin and fitz, he hasn't lived up to the #17 overall pick in a draft.

I said I would be fine with him coming here cheap. My opinion hasn't changed.


obviously I wouldn't expect two guys to both have a 100 catch seasons.
but when a 2nd rounder catches almost 70 more balls than a first rounder from the same year, how do you dispute that that is underachieving. Some day the excuses run out, and one can no longer dispute that the facts are the facts. He has sorely underproduced in his career and should therefore come quite cheap.

70 less catches, and almost 1000 less yards. tell me how that is doing just fine.

I don't put words in your mouth, please don't put them in mine.

for the record, do you think this kid has earned his money as the 17th overall pick?
If you do I would sorely disagree with that conclusion as well.

 

[2413fanphins]

Again you misrepresent the stats.

The 2004 Arizona Cardinals were a bad team that finished 6-10. Their offense was ranked 26th in the NFL and their starter Josh McCown had an awful year (233/408 2511 yards 11 td's and 10 INT's), what part of that screams high powered offense???

Another thing you fail to mention is that in the very same year that BJ had 49 catches for 537 yards, Boldin had 56/623, Fitz finished with 58/780 and Freddie Jones had 45/426. Looks to me like they spread the offense around pretty evenly, no?

Using individual stats in this case is intellectually dishonest, you have to take the whole offense into account in order to understand an individuals numbers.

first paragraph response...
I never remember claiming that the cards had a highpower offense.
The whole time I have been simply comparing numbers of WR A to WR B to show offensive production.

second paragraph response...
It would appear that they spread the ball around well... yes. And notice how boldin still had more catches while playing in SIX less games.

paragraph three response...
Now I am dishonest? I only appear to be dishonest because you break down each game and throw in factors like the running game, and defensive touchdowns to suit your argument. for the last time, I WAS COMPARING OFFENSIVE OUTPUT FROM WR TO WR ON PARTICULAR GAMES WHERE BJ WAS THE #2 WR.

it was only when you were trying to rationalize his numbers by throwing in all those other factors.
Factors I purposely ignored.
Including such factors as EJ's numbers and Defensive output, would only further illustrate my point. IF not, than, why do all the other recievers more often than not shine with those circumstances included yet BJ still underachieves for the most part.
I purposely included times where he was the #2 when both Fitz and AB were hurt.

there is no way bill parcells will pay this kid anything more than #3 WR money. He has shown nothing in his career to prove otherwise.

When the time rolls around that he either signs with us or doesn't sign with us, I will eat crow if I am wrong.
Parcells won't blow cap money on a deal for a guy who hasn't earned a thing yet.

 

[like2god]

You need to quit putting words into my mouth.

two posts in a row you say that I said he sux now.

thats not true. I challenge you to find anywhere in my posts where I said BJ sucks.

I may have questioned his motivation, and I didn't really even do that, I asked whether he was motivated or not. I didn't say this dude is obviously not motivated.
I certainly never said he sux.

Bro, you have questioned his motivation, you have said that he gave up and died, you said that he is happy riding the bench, you said that hasn't proven anything and needs to sign for the league minimum. You may not have used the word "suck" but you have strongly hinted at it.

Your grasping for straws a bit. Taking into account running plays, and defensive td's is nice. But I was simply comparing numbers from WR to WR.
You could make case for any underachieving WR in the league, if you broke down every game and said the D did this, and the running game was that.

It's not grasping at straws, it's understanding how the team has played and how they spread the ball around. If you don't take things like opponents, time of possession, running vs passing plays, injuries, whether a team is trying to come from behind or not, etc, etc, etc you can't fully understand why a player plays like he does.

I'm using the same reasoning that says that Ronnie isn't a bust, he just had poor blocking and shared carries with Ricky. It's the same reasoning that says that John Beck isn't a bust because he didn't have any playmakers around him, the offensive playcalling was bland and the OL didn't protect him.

He hasn't lived up to first round potential yet, bottom line. Regardless of factors such as boldin and fitz, he hasn't lived up to the #17 overall pick in a draft.

I said I would be fine with him coming here cheap. My opinion hasn't changed.

He hasn't really had a chance to live up to his draft spot, he has two of the best infront of him, that can't be overlooked or downplayed. Not many WR in this league would kick Boldin or Fitz to the # spot on a depth chart, BJ is no different.

obviously I wouldn't expect two guys to both have a 100 catch seasons.
but when a 2nd rounder catches almost 70 more balls than a first rounder from the same year, how do you dispute that that is underachieving. Some day the excuses run out, and one can no longer dispute that the facts are the facts. He has sorely underproduced in his career and should therefore come quite cheap.

Boldin is in a different league and I have never said that BJ will be the same type of player. But look at my breakdown above of the 2003 Arizona Cardinals and you'll see that their offense was horrible.

70 less catches, and almost 1000 less yards. tell me how that is doing just fine.

I don't put words in your mouth, please don't put them in mine.

for the record, do you think this kid has earned his money as the 17th overall pick?
If you do I would sorely disagree with that conclusion as well.

I've never said that he played like a 1st rounder, all I have ever pointed out was that he is a very talented player (many football scouts/teams agree) that has been stuck behind two of the best in the league. The Cards would love to keep him, many teams will be hot after him for his services and I think he would make a very nice addition to our receivers who ranked in the bottom third of the league last year and are currently one of the worst after releasing Booker.

I've said what I've had to say, I've pointed out facts and put the numbers in context, there is no need to keep running around in circles on the same points that I already put to bed. We'll have to agree to disagree.

 

[2413fanphins]

your at it again

Bro, you have questioned his motivation, you have said that he gave up and died, you said that he is happy riding the bench, you said that hasn't proven anything and needs to sign for the league minimum. You may not have used the word "suck" but you have strongly hinted at it.

Twisting my words again, and for quoting me so much, you should at least have an idea of what I am saying.
You even quoted exactly what I said in an earlier post. (#77)
you may want to reread it and discover that you are indeed again twisting my words.

I asked if he was motivated. my exact words were "IS HE MOTIVATED"
I NEVER said he gave up.
I NEVER said he is happy riding the bench.
I have never said he sucks, I don't even think I hinted that he sucks.
I broke down his stats and found them to be quite average to below average, and some took offense to my findings.


But did this dude just pack it in and say screw these guys are better than me? what's his general attitude, does he want to get better or is he content to sit behind fitz and anquon.

This was a question I asked. Not a statement I made. I realize I forgot to use a question mark, but you get the idea. I asked to get more info on the kid.
Tell me in that bold paragraph, where I said anything you claim that I have stated.
I would understand if I said,
Bryant johnson packed it in.
bryant johnson quit.
byrant johnson loves his warm seat on the bench.
bryant johnson is a loser who sux.
however, none of this was said.



I did say he hasn't proven anything. I don't believe you've proven otherwise.
I did say he should come here at the Vets minimum salary. Are we to give him a big contract just because he has some upside?


Arizona's offense was probably below average, but you can't call it horrible when a WR manages 100+ catches and 1377 yds to go with 8tds.
he may have been the only one to attain them, but when BJ comes in just short of 1000 yards less and almost 70 catches behind, one has to wonder.

I will agree to disagree. You haven't convinced me to jump ship yet, so I guess we have no other choice.


But you certainly shouldn't put my words in my mouth, I don't expect to see that kind of stuff out of a supermod.


good day.

 

[nyfinzfan]

Bryant Johnson should be tops on our list for a free agent receiver. Being a younger better version of Marty Booker. It also offers a heckuva place for Johnson to go to where he would be a definite starter.

 

[Wolf13]

I'm all for him, lets get this thing put together!

 

[Celtkin]

Twisting my words again, and for quoting me so much, you should at least have an idea of what I am saying.
You even quoted exactly what I said in an earlier post. (#77)
you may want to reread it and discover that you are indeed again twisting my words.

I asked if he was motivated. my exact words were "IS HE MOTIVATED"
I NEVER said he gave up.
I NEVER said he is happy riding the bench.
I have never said he sucks, I don't even think I hinted that he sucks.
I broke down his stats and found them to be quite average to below average, and some took offense to my findings.


But did this dude just pack it in and say screw these guys are better than me? what's his general attitude, does he want to get better or is he content to sit behind fitz and anquon.

This was a question I asked. Not a statement I made. I realize I forgot to use a question mark, but you get the idea. I asked to get more info on the kid.
Tell me in that bold paragraph, where I said anything you claim that I have stated.
I would understand if I said,
Bryant johnson packed it in.
bryant johnson quit.
byrant johnson loves his warm seat on the bench.
bryant johnson is a loser who sux.
however, none of this was said.



I did say he hasn't proven anything. I don't believe you've proven otherwise.
I did say he should come here at the Vets minimum salary. Are we to give him a big contract just because he has some upside?


Arizona's offense was probably below average, but you can't call it horrible when a WR manages 100+ catches and 1377 yds to go with 8tds.
he may have been the only one to attain them, but when BJ comes in just short of 1000 yards less and almost 70 catches behind, one has to wonder.

I will agree to disagree. You haven't convinced me to jump ship yet, so I guess we have no other choice.


But you certainly shouldn't put my words in my mouth, I don't expect to see that kind of stuff out of a supermod.


good day.

I read back to post 77. No one put words in your mouth, bro. Mike even acknowledged that you didn't say he sucked. Worst case, Mike misinterpreted what you were saying. When it becomes wrong for a staff member to civilly express a difference of opinion on a message board will be the day I quit being on staff.

 

[I am Bane]

Lets all settleskins and lets just play catch!!!

Bryant Johnson.... how is he doing?

 

[General Tso]

Bryant Johnson should be tops on our list for a free agent receiver. Being a younger better version of Marty Booker. It also offers a heckuva place for Johnson to go to where he would be a definite starter.

Now Bryant Johnson, a WR who in 80+ games including over 12 starts has never had a 90 yard game, is better than Marty Booker? The same Marty Booker that's had 11 90 yard games in that same time period, serving as Miami's #2 WR, with equally horrific offenses/teams surrounding him? The same M. Booker that's had 2 1,000 yard seasons and a pro-bowl berth?

Wow... the things you read on Finheaven sometimes.

 

[#1dolphinsfan]

Bryant Johnson should be tops on our list for a free agent receiver. Being a younger better version of Marty Booker. It also offers a heckuva place for Johnson to go to where he would be a definite starter.

IMO Bernard Berrian and DJ Hackett are better then him