Dolphins looking to trade up in the Draft?

[hoops]

You're right, but it happens the other way around just as much, if not more. Guys fly up the boards because the senior bowl coaches say the player had a "great personality and leadership" (Tebow) then game time comes around and he's hot garbage. Not saying anyone here thought he was any good, but just using him as an example.

well next time pick a better example...ha ha...tebow was hot garbage as a qb...and still is...most that hype was media driven

 

[finfan54]

no argument there although i believe they aren't locked in on weeden in 2013 as of now...they sure aren't trying to hide anything feeling wise about the qb position...i'm sure they would like to trade out though and acquire more assets

---------- Post added at 04:07 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:05 PM ----------



it's one part of the process...and the last thing i put all my eggs in...

Well, ok then.

I like all three myself. Its all conjecture anyways.

Joeckle is Tanne's boy. They may want to keep it in the family.

We trade with a team who is willing to trade, not who we want to trade with.

 

[ITS!MATEO]

By whom? You've spoken with scouts who told you this?



Yes, you're right. Every year the public is often very wrong about how certain players are really valued, and then they are corrected as the process goes on.

Some older mock drafts had them in the 2nd round, that's for sure. I could go searching for 2 month old NFL mocks if you like? If that makes the argument any better..


I think some teams sometimes start believing the hype though and that's why some players get taken ahead of others. It all depends on the personnel I guess.

---------- Post added at 04:19 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:17 PM ----------

well next time pick a better example...ha ha...tebow was hot garbage as a qb...and still is...most that hype was media driven

But he was a 1st round pick


That's my point.

 

[ckparrothead]

well, you kinda just said so. You said Joeckel didnt wow anyone at the combine.

It's become chic for fans to copy what they perceive scouts and general managers to be saying when they communicate that the Combine testing is not in any way important to the process. Unfortunately this is kind of a child-like mimicry of a more complicated issue.

It's true that fans that truly copy the work of scouts...and by that I mean they watch hundreds of hours' worth of film on prospects per month, regularly speaking to and visiting with coaches of various college teams, etc...will find about as much value in the Combine as true scouts and general managers.

But since I don't know any one here on this message board that actually does that (and I include myself in that, as I do not speak to or visit with any college coaches whatsoever, just about), then we can't make such a claim. For the rest of us, the Combine ABSOLUTELY holds value. For most of these draft prospects, scouts already have times and measures on file for them. There are some exceptions. Tavon Austin had never had a 40 time measured in his life prior to the Combine. About 90% of the rest of the guys have, though...at campus testings. They've also had vertical jumps on file, broad jumps, etc. Scouts are already privy to all this stuff. They talk to the coaches directly and get it from them. And even when it's not in numbers form, they talk to the coaches about which kids have the most athletic prowess and the coaches usually shoot it to them straight, e.g. "This kid is going to blow up a Combine, he's incredible." These scouts and GMs already know who is going to lift a ton or jump out of the building.

And that's on top of the hundreds of hours a month of film work they all do which we do not necessarily replicate. That film view alone if you do it right is going to give you an excellent judgment about guys' speed, agility, measurements and strength. For guys like us who are just watching the film, that's our best bet for making the Combine irrelevant. But unless you have no other job and this is literally ALL that you do, then it's not enough.

So yeah, the Combine is important in the process. It should be. Just about anyone here saying otherwise is pretending they're something that they're not.

Now, that said...there's avid disagreement even within the scouting community about the value of the Combine measurements. Hell just this year Thomas Dimitroff got in front of the NFL Network cameras and flat out scolded Mike Mayock for referring to the Combine as the "underwear olympics" and pretending that it has no real value other than medical checks. That would be Thomas Dimitroff the pretty wildly successful General Manager of the Atlanta Falcons, by the way. The sense you get from the scouts themselves is that the Combine measures are actually important to even them, generally speaking, but most don't want to admit it. But several of them will flat out tell you we don't go through all this trouble for no reason.

So yeah...the Combine is part of the process. It can be important. It must be placed in its proper context.

---------- Post added at 04:23 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:22 PM ----------

Some older mock drafts had them in the 2nd round, that's for sure. I could go searching for 2 month old NFL mocks if you like? If that makes the argument any better..

Mocks? Really? That's the evidence?

So Pete Prisco puts something in a mock draft...and this is the truth about how a player is really being valued by the scouts? Surely you jest.

 

[ITS!MATEO]

Some of those guys that make mocks and predictions are like independent scouts.


And to be fair, mocks are usually very very close to what actually happens in the draft.

 

[ckparrothead]

Some of those guys that make mocks and predictions are like independent scouts.

Some. But even those are not actual scouts. You don't know what the actual scouts actually think unless they tell you, and you can be sure they're telling you the truth.

And to be fair, mocks are usually very very close to what actually happens in the draft.

Hardly. Mock drafts are as fluid as a whirlpool until the eve before the draft and even then their accuracy is notoriously awful.

I did a mock draft for the 2013 NFL Draft about 48 hours after the 2012 NFL Draft. I didn't want to. Bleacher Report (who was paying me at the time) forced me to. Was my mock draft evidence of what the scouts actually thought about Oday Aboushi, Kenny Stills, Carrington Byndom or David Amerson? I'm flattered if you think so. But...no.

 

[Pachyderm_Wave]

I honestly can't believe someone would use mock drafts by sports writers as evidence who write about college football one day, and Bubba Watson's new driver shaft the next.

NFL teams put far more into the combine than they'll ever admit to. All you have to do is pay attention to where the players come off the board every year. They have to, because it's the only apples-to-apples comparison they get among all these prospects. They have to draft based off something tangible. There is no magic formula for evaluating talent.


As for the thread, it's just a terrible idea to trade up for one of these offensive lineman. Period.

 

[finfan54]

It's become chic for fans to copy what they perceive scouts and general managers to be saying when they communicate that the Combine testing is not in any way important to the process. Unfortunately this is kind of a child-like mimicry of a more complicated issue.

It's true that fans that truly copy the work of scouts...and by that I mean they watch hundreds of hours' worth of film on prospects per month, regularly speaking to and visiting with coaches of various college teams, etc...will find about as much value in the Combine as true scouts and general managers.

But since I don't know any one here on this message board that actually does that (and I include myself in that, as I do not speak to or visit with any college coaches whatsoever, just about), then we can't make such a claim. For the rest of us, the Combine ABSOLUTELY holds value. For most of these draft prospects, scouts already have times and measures on file for them. There are some exceptions. Tavon Austin had never had a 40 time measured in his life prior to the Combine. About 90% of the rest of the guys have, though...at campus testings. They've also had vertical jumps on file, broad jumps, etc. Scouts are already privy to all this stuff. They talk to the coaches directly and get it from them. And even when it's not in numbers form, they talk to the coaches about which kids have the most athletic prowess and the coaches usually shoot it to them straight, e.g. "This kid is going to blow up a Combine, he's incredible." These scouts and GMs already know who is going to lift a ton or jump out of the building.

And that's on top of the hundreds of hours a month of film work they all do which we do not necessarily replicate. That film view alone if you do it right is going to give you an excellent judgment about guys' speed, agility, measurements and strength. For guys like us who are just watching the film, that's our best bet for making the Combine irrelevant. But unless you have no other job and this is literally ALL that you do, then it's not enough.

So yeah, the Combine is important in the process. It should be. Just about anyone here saying otherwise is pretending they're something that they're not.

Now, that said...there's avid disagreement even within the scouting community about the value of the Combine measurements. Hell just this year Thomas Dimitroff got in front of the NFL Network cameras and flat out scolded Mike Mayock for referring to the Combine as the "underwear olympics" and pretending that it has no real value other than medical checks. That would be Thomas Dimitroff the pretty wildly successful General Manager of the Atlanta Falcons, by the way. The sense you get from the scouts themselves is that the Combine measures are actually important to even them, generally speaking, but most don't want to admit it. But several of them will flat out tell you we don't go through all this trouble for no reason.

So yeah...the Combine is part of the process. It can be important. It must be placed in its proper context.

---------- Post added at 04:23 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:22 PM ----------



Mocks? Really? That's the evidence?

So Pete Prisco puts something in a mock draft...and this is the truth about how a player is really being valued by the scouts? Surely you jest.

I agree completely. They say its more about the "getting to know you" part of the process with the interviews and then the measurables. It probably clues a team in to which guy they will pick based on the combine if they are choosing between a couple different guys at the same position.

As far as these 3 LT's, They are all good. One is just lighter and more athletic, but then again, will they get mauled more at the next level? Who knows? All things being equal, I would think the Dolphins favor a guy like Joeckle as the A&M family.

I can tell you though with more certainty that we would be going up for one of these guys and not milliner.

 

[ITS!MATEO]

Some. But even those are not actual scouts. You don't know what the actual scouts actually think unless they tell you, and you can be sure they're telling you the truth.



Hardly. Mock drafts are as fluid as a whirlpool until the eve before the draft and even then their accuracy is notoriously awful.

I did a mock draft for the 2013 NFL Draft about 48 hours after the 2012 NFL Draft. I didn't want to. Bleacher Report (who was paying me at the time) forced me to. Was my mock draft evidence of what the scouts actually thought about Oday Aboushi, Kenny Stills, Carrington Byndom or David Amerson? I'm flattered if you think so. But...no.

They also can get info on which team likes who. Smokescreens maybe, but it's still more info then what a fan would get otherwise. You will NEVER get better info then from the scout themselves, but it's still good to pay attention to mocks, predictions, draft talk because you could get some info out of it along with the game tape, schemes and paying attention to personnel attending workouts etc. Idk it works for me I guess. I'm no expert.

 

[hoops]

I honestly can't believe someone would use mock drafts by sports writers as evidence who write about college football one day, and Bubba Watson's new driver shaft the next.

NFL teams put far more into the combine than they'll ever admit to. All you have to do is pay attention to where the players come off the board every year. They have to, because it's the only apples-to-apples comparison they get among all these prospects. They have to draft based off something tangible. There is no magic formula for evaluating talent.


As for the thread, it's just a terrible idea to trade up for one of these offensive lineman. Period.

i think i know where you are getting at here as in you don't value the position enough for it but please explain how trading up for a prospect as talented as lane johnson is ever a terrible idea??? imo in just about any draft he validates a top 10 pick...those feet and that athleticism and lateral movement skills in a tackle are rare...

 

[ITS!MATEO]

I honestly can't believe someone would use mock drafts by sports writers as evidence who write about college football one day, and Bubba Watson's new driver shaft the next.

NFL teams put far more into the combine than they'll ever admit to. All you have to do is pay attention to where the players come off the board every year. They have to, because it's the only apples-to-apples comparison they get among all these prospects. They have to draft based off something tangible. There is no magic formula for evaluating talent.


As for the thread, it's just a terrible idea to trade up for one of these offensive lineman. Period.

I don't use it as evidence, I use it as a tool along with other things, to gauge where a player could possibly go... I already said i'm not a scout or anything. I pay attention to everybody's assessments and put the info together as I see it.

 

[ckparrothead]

There is no magic formula for evaluating talent.

Amen.

 

[Pachyderm_Wave]

i think i know where you are getting at here as in you don't value the position enough for it but please explain how trading up for a prospect as talented as lane johnson is ever a terrible idea??? imo in just about any draft he validates a top 10 pick...those feet and that athleticism and lateral movement skills in a tackle are rare...

I don't understand how you couldn't understand it.

Didn't Miami just get rid of "the best left tackle in the league" because they didn't want to pay him? They didn't want to pay him because all they did was lose with him no matter good he was.

It's not going to matter how good Lane Johnson is either, because he's not going to have the impact. It'll be the same thing over again that you saw with Jake Long..... threads arguing about how he was the right pick because he's going to the pro-bowl, meanwhile the team loses because they passed up players who have more impact that are contributing to their team's wins elsewhere.

Miami still hasn't figured out that you develope talent along the offensive line, and spend your high draft picks on elite skill position talent that impacts games. You can't develope slow, unathletic, or non-instinctive skill position players into difference makers. You can't get blood from a turnip.

If they trade up, it has to be for an impact player at a skill position. Otherwise, it's a mistake just like it always is.

I don't even have to argue this case. Miami makes it for me every year. You're mashed over the head with it constantly when you watch this team. Watch Atlanta, pay attention to their drafts, and stop ignoring the difference.

 

[Hayden Fox]

I don't understand how you couldn't understand it.

Didn't Miami just get rid of "the best left tackle in the league" because they didn't want to pay him? They didn't want to pay him because all they did was lose with him no matter good he was.

It's not going to matter how good Lane Johnson is either, because he's not going to have the impact. It'll be the same thing over again that you saw with Jake Long..... threads arguing about how he was the right pick because he's going to the pro-bowl, meanwhile the team loses because they passed up players who have more impact that are contributing to their team's wins elsewhere.

Miami still hasn't figured out that you develope talent along the offensive line, and spend your high draft picks on elite skill position talent that impacts games. You can't develope slow, unathletic, or non-instinctive skill position players into difference makers. You can't get blood from a turnip.

If they trade up, it has to be for an impact player at a skill position. Otherwise, it's a mistake just like it always is.

I don't even have to argue this case. Miami makes it for me every year. You're mashed over the head with it constantly when you watch this team. Watch Atlanta, pay attention to their drafts, and stop ignoring the difference.

Didn't the Fins just pay millions of dollars for impact players? Now, its time to find a formula to protect the franchise QB and allow those weapons to operate.

 

[ohall]

Lane Johnson would be a brilliant draft pick.

Agreed, but with most of this crowd they would want Ireland's head if that happened!