hoops scoops...potential #19 pick lb ryan shazier tale of the tape... | Page 10 | FinHeaven - Miami Dolphins Forums

hoops scoops...potential #19 pick lb ryan shazier tale of the tape...

It seems to me that everybody is answering every question other than the one Hoops has posed in his writeup, which is "Do you really believe Shazier has the pre-snap read ability and the post-snap instinct/awareness to be a successful NFL linebacker worthy of a High-ish Round 1 pick?"

I have the same issue with him, more or less and have posted on it in other threads. You can be at elite level in multiple areas of linebacking duties, but if you don't have top-end play diagnosis and read-react abolities, you ceiling just got dramatically lowered. I see similar things with Shazier as hoops does and I also see regularly him struggle to sift through the trash as a combination of him being a little late to the party and not being the biggest guy. This will be exacerbated in the pros.

He might have been in a D that wasn't well coached. He might be an athletic specimen. He might have huge college production. But you have to look at his fit in the pros and ask whether his upward curve will justify such a high pick. I don't think it's there as far as Round 1 goes.

Then you need to look at what Miami needs. They need a Mike. They want to move Ellerbe to WLB and considered Misi for MLB. Misi doesn't want to move (allegedly), because he knows how much play diagnosis is needed at Mike and (despite being a multi-year vet plus 2 yrs with Coyle). So, we're seemingly shopping for a Mike. Shazier isn't automatic Mike material - physically or by experience, he doesn't appear to be the vocal playcaller in Ohio St and he does appear to be a little off the pace instinctually. It's not a fit.

Even if you draft him for the Will spot and keep Ellerbe at Mike, will he justify his lofty draft position and will the sacrifice of not getting a new Mike in work out? Again, I have my doubts.

Hoops also said he's not convinced that Mosley will work out as the better player but at least the instinct and play read ability is there off the bat. I have to agree with that viewpoint also. Mosley doesn't have "elite" written all over him, but he does represent a much better fit for what this LB corps needs. That might not be enough to justify the pick on him, but at least it would be round peg in round hole.

If you're not drafting with need in mind and you believe Shazier will display that instinctiveness in the pros, then fair enough. But it's not a unanimous viewpoint, by any means.

I'd rather we use that pick at a different position and look at Preston Brown as a Mike candidate in the 3rd or so. Van Noy interests me also, but not as a Mike or a pick for need. Borland fits the bill but the lack of size is a big flag for me at the draft position he's being projected, and I'm not a "prototypicals" disciple.
 
Fin Thirteen said:
It seems to me that everybody is answering every question other than the one Hoops has posed in his writeup, which is "Do you really believe Shazier has the pre-snap read ability and the post-snap instinct/awareness to be a successful NFL linebacker worthy of a High-ish Round 1 pick?"

I have the same issue with him, more or less and have posted on it in other threads. You can be at elite level in multiple areas of linebacking duties, but if you don't have top-end play diagnosis and read-react abolities, you ceiling just got dramatically lowered. I see similar things with Shazier as hoops does and I also see regularly him struggle to sift through the trash as a combination of him being a little late to the party and not being the biggest guy. This will be exacerbated in the pros.

He might have been in a D that wasn't well coached. He might be an athletic specimen. He might have huge college production. But you have to look at his fit in the pros and ask whether his upward curve will justify such a high pick. I don't think it's there as far as Round 1 goes.

Then you need to look at what Miami needs. They need a Mike. They want to move Ellerbe to WLB and considered Misi for MLB. Misi doesn't want to move (allegedly), because he knows how much play diagnosis is needed at Mike and (despite being a multi-year vet plus 2 yrs with Coyle). So, we're seemingly shopping for a Mike. Shazier isn't automatic Mike material - physically or by experience, he doesn't appear to be the vocal playcaller in Ohio St and he does appear to be a little off the pace instinctually. It's not a fit.

Even if you draft him for the Will spot and keep Ellerbe at Mike, will he justify his lofty draft position and will the sacrifice of not getting a new Mike in work out? Again, I have my doubts.

Hoops also said he's not convinced that Mosley will work out as the better player but at least the instinct and play read ability is there off the bat. I have to agree with that viewpoint also. Mosley doesn't have "elite" written all over him, but he does represent a much better fit for what this LB corps needs. That might not be enough to justify the pick on him, but at least it would be round peg in round hole.

If you're not drafting with need in mind and you believe Shazier will display that instinctiveness in the pros, then fair enough. But it's not a unanimous viewpoint, by any means.

I'd rather we use that pick at a different position and look at Preston Brown as a Mike candidate in the 3rd or so. Van Noy interests me also, but not as a Mike or a pick for need. Borland fits the bill but the lack of size is a big flag for me at the draft position he's being projected, and I'm not a "prototypicals" disciple.
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exactly...although i will add that with mosley you are also talking about 4.65 in addition to the read and dx you mentioned and i have noted plus zone drop awareness and the ability to play a solid man coverage lb...all of which help raise the grade to a top 20 value for me FOR MIAMI

this isn't 4.8 or 4.85 this is every down lb speed added to the entire package...again though key thing being and people need to get this part of it...FOR MIAMI

when i look at prospects i look at fit for us and what our specific needs are...no matter the position...at lb read and dx is sorely missing in our unit as is zone drop awareness
 
Fin Thirteen said:
It seems to me that everybody is answering every question other than the one Hoops has posed in his writeup, which is "Do you really believe Shazier has the pre-snap read ability and the post-snap instinct/awareness to be a successful NFL linebacker worthy of a High-ish Round 1 pick?"

I have the same issue with him, more or less and have posted on it in other threads. You can be at elite level in multiple areas of linebacking duties, but if you don't have top-end play diagnosis and read-react abolities, you ceiling just got dramatically lowered. I see similar things with Shazier as hoops does and I also see regularly him struggle to sift through the trash as a combination of him being a little late to the party and not being the biggest guy. This will be exacerbated in the pros.

He might have been in a D that wasn't well coached. He might be an athletic specimen. He might have huge college production. But you have to look at his fit in the pros and ask whether his upward curve will justify such a high pick. I don't think it's there as far as Round 1 goes.

Then you need to look at what Miami needs. They need a Mike. They want to move Ellerbe to WLB and considered Misi for MLB. Misi doesn't want to move (allegedly), because he knows how much play diagnosis is needed at Mike and (despite being a multi-year vet plus 2 yrs with Coyle). So, we're seemingly shopping for a Mike. Shazier isn't automatic Mike material - physically or by experience, he doesn't appear to be the vocal playcaller in Ohio St and he does appear to be a little off the pace instinctually. It's not a fit.

Even if you draft him for the Will spot and keep Ellerbe at Mike, will he justify his lofty draft position and will the sacrifice of not getting a new Mike in work out? Again, I have my doubts.

Hoops also said he's not convinced that Mosley will work out as the better player but at least the instinct and play read ability is there off the bat. I have to agree with that viewpoint also. Mosley doesn't have "elite" written all over him, but he does represent a much better fit for what this LB corps needs. That might not be enough to justify the pick on him, but at least it would be round peg in round hole.

If you're not drafting with need in mind and you believe Shazier will display that instinctiveness in the pros, then fair enough. But it's not a unanimous viewpoint, by any means.

I'd rather we use that pick at a different position and look at Preston Brown as a Mike candidate in the 3rd or so. Van Noy interests me also, but not as a Mike or a pick for need. Borland fits the bill but the lack of size is a big flag for me at the draft position he's being projected, and I'm not a "prototypicals" disciple.
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Said it before, but Vontaze Burfict led the NFL in tackles from the WLB position in Cincinnati under Zimmer, where Coyle was a DB coach before he came to Miami. I've also noted that people turned on Wheeler SO quickly because he was in position to make plays so often. WLB is a productive position in this D - more productive than MIKE.
 
vontazer burfict was way way more instinctual than shazier is though...i mean how do you think he gets by running as slow a time as he does...cause he's a step ahead on things...burfict was always a first round grade lb talent...he ran a worse number than he plays cause he put on bad weight but his instincts and awareness at lb is what makes him as good as he is

shazier doesnt have that level read and dx...
 
hooshoops said:
vontazer burfict was way way more instinctual than shazier is though...i mean how do you think he gets by running as slow a time as he does...cause he's a step ahead on things...burfict was always a first round grade lb talent...he ran a worse number than he plays cause he put on bad weight but his instincts and awareness at lb is what makes him as good as he is

shazier doesnt have that level read and dx...
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I was just addressing the importance of WLB in our D. We've already agreed to disagree on the instincts, remember? :^p
 
j-off-her-doll said:
Said it before, but Vontaze Burfict led the NFL in tackles from the WLB position in Cincinnati under Zimmer, where Coyle was a DB coach before he came to Miami. I've also noted that people turned on Wheeler SO quickly because he was in position to make plays so often. WLB is a productive position in this D - more productive than MIKE.
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But Ellerbe is going to be the Will, or at least he'll be fighting it out with Wheeler, according to the Dolphins.

So, what, we're going to add Shazier as a Will candidate, to go with WHeeler, Ellerbe (and possibly Jenkins) have nobody at Mike who can call the plays (or Misi at Mike who doesn't think he can call the plays, plus draft another LB to start as our SAM)? Okaaaay......


We need to draft a Mike who will be the on-field general and have the instincts/awareness to do so, regardless of how many tackles a Willbacker makes in a Coyle defense.
 
j-off-her-doll said:
Issues aside, Burfict was never in Shazier's class as a prospect. They're different players, but the point - again - is that there are plays to be made by the WLB in this D.
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yeah you're right burfict was in a class above as far as actual read and dx...good grief i can't believe someones gonna try and sell me that bill of goods...
 
uk_dolfan said:
Idk where the post about the gm graveyard being full of gms who took athletes over players was but I would comment that if your the one guy that comes away with Jimmy Graham in round 3 then your gm of the decade...and that's why athletes will get picked over and over and over again
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Round 3 would be a great spot to go to that well, it's round 1 where you get burned. Nowhere is this more evident than at QB. The JaMarcuses of the world go high, while the Bradys, Montanas, Brees, do not. Now everyone insists Bridgewater may slip out of the 1st while Bortles is a certain 1st round pick.

I really haven't watched Shazier, I'm going off what hoops and other scouts have said, and the fact that Mosley is awesome. I saw ck said his line protected him, but the play that sold me on him is one where the lineman has a clean shot at him, Mosely actually takes a short step the wrong way to bait him then goes around him to make the tackle. Like hoops has said, he's clearly one step ahead mentally and his pass defense is excellent, which is an extremely valuable ability in this day and age.
 
Fin Thirteen said:
But Ellerbe is going to be the Will, or at least he'll be fighting it out with Wheeler, according to the Dolphins.

So, what, we're going to add Shazier as a Will candidate, to go with WHeeler, Ellerbe (and possibly Jenkins) have nobody at Mike who can call the plays (or Misi at Mike who doesn't think he can call the plays, plus draft another LB to start as our SAM)? Okaaaay......


We need to draft a Mike who will be the on-field general and have the instincts/awareness to do so, regardless of how many tackles a Willbacker makes in a Coyle defense.
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Leave Ellerbe at MIKE. I'd rather have the better player at WLB in this D. Either way, I don't see Mosley as within 20 slots of Shazier. Shazier dealt with more O-linemen than Mosley, and Shazier outproduced Mosley BY A ****ING TON. We're not even discussing comparable prospects - player or athlete.

Shazier = top 10, all day, every day.

Mosley = top 40

I'll take Shazier to play any position on the field over Mosley.
 
Shazier hesitates too much for my taste. Like, even if he's on a blitz or if they're inside their own 5yd line he'll pull up or take half-steps at weird times. He's usually very good knifing in downhill, but then there are times when he lays off the gas, like he's unsure of where a play is going, unsure of how to take on a block, or something. It's weird. He takes a few too many wrong steps...but in college he could make up for it with his athletic ability. I don't see that translating with a much smaller margin for error.

People are right to question his instincts for a simple reason: if he had good instincts and play recognition to go along with his dynamite athletic measurables...he'd be a top 10 pick. And very few if any experts have him listed as such.
 
Twitches Brew said:
Shazier hesitates too much for my taste. Like, even if he's on a blitz or if they're inside their own 5yd line he'll pull up or take half-steps at weird times. He's usually very good knifing in downhill, but then there are times when he lays off the gas, like he's unsure of where a play is going, unsure of how to take on a block, or something. It's weird. He takes a lot of wrong steps...but in college he could make up for it with his athletic ability. I don't see that translating with a much smaller margin for error.

People are right to question his instincts for a simple reason: if he had good instincts and play recognition to go along with his dynamite athletic measurables...he'd be a top 10 pick. And very few if any experts have him listed as such.
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Bingo
 
Twitches Brew said:
Shazier hesitates too much for my taste. Like, even if he's on a blitz or if they're inside their own 5yd line he'll pull up or take half-steps at weird times. He's usually very good knifing in downhill, but then there are times when he lays off the gas, like he's unsure of where a play is going, unsure of how to take on a block, or something. It's weird. He takes a lot of wrong steps...but in college he could make up for it with his athletic ability. I don't see that translating with a much smaller margin for error.

People are right to question his instincts for a simple reason: if he had good instincts and play recognition to go along with his dynamite athletic measurables...he'd be a top 10 pick. And very few if any experts have him listed as such.
Click to expand...

You don't get that kind of production with bad instincts. He should be a top 10 pick.
 
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