Merged: Ask Boomer (No B.S. Wanted)

[Omaha]

The difference between the 2 injuries is that Brees has a middle range arm, that could be seriously affected by the injury and could force a premature retirement because of the lack of arm strength.

Culpepper's injury doesn't affect what is already a great arm. Now clearly a multiple knee knacker which is what he suffered, will effect his ability to run, to slide the pocket, to plant and make him susceptible to hits. Same thing happened to Marino. You could argue that he wasn't the same player after the knee injury. Now, things medically have moved on dramatically since Danny's injury. You only have to look at Coral Gables and Willis McGahee to see that.

But like you say, you have to weigh up, in a pretty strong draft in areas of Miami need - CB, LB, OL especially - whether we could handle giving up the 2 for Culpepper, when you could get a Pro Bowl starter in Brees essentially for free?

On pure talent, I'm going with Culpepper. If I get a Pro Bowl passer who is healthy and I don't have to give away the 51st pick, then I take Brees.

But we don't know health or will we when we must make a decision.

So Drew risk, weak arm with 2nd rounder
Or Culpepper knee risk and clearly won't be able to play until mid season at best and lose a 2nd rounder. Who do you roll the dice on?

I thought drew had an above average arm (no cannon but no Jay Fiedler either)

 

[ckparrothead]

Wow Boomer, that's the longest post I've ever seen you write about Vince.

 

[dolphan117]

But we don't know health or will we when we must make a decision.

So Drew risk, weak arm with 2nd rounder
Or Culpepper knee risk and clearly won't be able to play until mid season at best and lose a 2nd rounder. Who do you roll the dice on?

I thought drew had an above average arm (no cannon but no Jay Fiedler either)

Do you mean this as a hypothetical "what if they cost the same amount in draft picks and you had to pick one" ? In reality the choice we are making is between trading picks for Culpepper or picking up Brees as a FA spending no draft picks.

 

[Omaha]

sorry if unclear

Do you mean this as a hypothetical "what if they cost the same amount in draft picks and you had to pick one" ? In reality the choice we are making is between trading picks for Culpepper or picking up Brees as a FA spending no draft picks.

Brees
vs
Culpepper and we lose our 2nd round pick

 

[ckparrothead]

The problem with a term like "above-average" in terms of arm strength is that the "average" arm among NFL starters looks more like Ben Roethlisberger's arm, not Marc Bulger's...and certainly not Jay Fiedler's.

Above-average for the NFL would actually be someone like Leftwich, Palmer, Culpepper, Brooks, etc.

 

[Omaha]

so what you're saying is

The problem with a term like "above-average" in terms of arm strength is that the "average" arm among NFL starters looks more like Ben Roethlisberger's arm, not Marc Bulger's...and certainly not Jay Fiedler's.

Above-average for the NFL would actually be someone like Leftwich, Palmer, Culpepper, Brooks, etc.

he may have an above average NFL arm
but at best an average to below average NFL STARTING Qb arm.
Is that correct?

 

[ckparrothead]

he may have an above average NFL arm
but at best an average to below average NFL STARTING Qb arm.
Is that correct?

Umm...I guess. I mean, I haven't surveyed all the backups and third stringers in the NFL to see if their arms are consistently weaker than the arms of starters...but they probably are..

I would just prefer to say that he has a below average NFL arm but can still make all the throws.

 

[Pink_Dove]

The problem with a term like "above-average" in terms of arm strength is that the "average" arm among NFL starters looks more like Ben Roethlisberger's arm, not Marc Bulger's...and certainly not Jay Fiedler's.

Above-average for the NFL would actually be someone like Leftwich, Palmer, Culpepper, Brooks, etc.

Big Ben has an average arm ? Sounds a bit harsh don't ya think CK...He certainly has the ability to thread the needle and gun it in there when he needs to. I've also seen him air it with a 40 yarder a couple times to Cedrick Wilson right on the money. If he were to have an average arm, then half of starting QB's have a below average arm which is hard to believe. And where would Kyle Orton and Jay Fiedler's arms qualify ? IMO he belongs in that 'above average' category with Leftwich, Palmer and Culpepper.

 

[Boomer]

Wow Boomer, that's the longest post I've ever seen you write about Vince.

FLMAO.

Mate I started and before I knew it, there was pages of the stuff.

 

[ckparrothead]

Big Ben has an average arm ? Sounds a bit harsh don't ya think CK...He certainly has the ability to thread the needle and gun it in there when he needs to. I've also seen him air it with a 40 yarder a couple times to Cedrick Wilson right on the money. If he were to have an average arm, then half of starting QB's have a below average arm which is hard to believe. And where would Kyle Orton and Jay Fiedler's arms qualify ? IMO he belongs in that 'above average' category with Leftwich, Palmer and Culpepper.

It isn't that Ben has a weak arm. It's just that the kind of strong arm that Ben has, that Matt Hasselbeck has, that a number of guys have, IS the norm for NFL starters...so yes, they have "average" NFL arms. Guys like Brees, Brady, Bulger, Green, and Grossman have "below average" NFL arms...but most people would still say they have strong arms that can make all the NFL throws, compared to lets say college QBs. Guys like Pennington, Fiedler, possibly Griese...they have arms that really can't make all the throws.

 

[ckparrothead]

BTW, wouldn't the very definition of "average" be that half the guys have better arms than you and the other half have worse arms than you? A little perspective, please.

 

[Mile High Fin]

BTW, wouldn't the very definition of "average" be that half the guys have better arms than you and the other half have worse arms than you? A little perspective, please.

I'm feelin' ya, CK....

But not in a Brokeback kinda way....


Yes, someone could technically say that the TOP 16 arms, are all "above-average" arms
and the BOTTOM 16 arms are "below average" arms...
With no one exactly "average" (either you're top half or bottom half).

I think of it like this, give-or-take:

TOP 10: Above-average arms
MIDDLE 10: Average arms
BOTTOM 10: Below-average arms

I'd tend to think Brees started his career in the BOTTOM 10, but the past 2 years (or so), he's improved to the MIDDLE 10 in arm strength...
But I respect what you're saying....that he can make all the NFL throws regardless...

 

[ckparrothead]

I'm feelin' ya, CK....

But not in a Brokeback kinda way....


Yes, someone could technically say that the TOP 16 arms, are all "above-average" arms
and the BOTTOM 16 arms are "below average" arms...
With no one exactly "average" (either you're top half or bottom half).

I think of it like this, give-or-take:

TOP 10: Above-average arms
MIDDLE 10: Average arms
BOTTOM 10: Below-average arms

I'd tend to think Brees started his career in the BOTTOM 10, but the past 2 years (or so), he's improved to the MIDDLE 10 in arm strength...
But I respect what you're saying....that he can make all the NFL throws regardless...

I've broken it out before. I included about 35 quarterbacks in my "starters" category because there are some situations in which there are a couple of guys that could be considered starter quality...and what I found was there's a group of about 25 guys who have very strong arms. Among those you could probably break out the top 5 guns, but the top 10 would be a little harder to distinguish. However, there is a pretty distinguishable dropoff from those 25 guys to the next group of guys, who are a little indistinguishable from each other...and then there's a final group which basically only includes one or two guys that have Pennington arms (actually Pennington himself, basically). If you wanted to break it out and say that Brees is part of the middle third of NFL arms, I would have to disagree...more like the top of the bottom third.

 

[burghPhinFan]

Hey Boom
I was glancing thru USA today's Sportsweekly today, they have their 'top 64'.
I didn't see Cromartie in there anywhere. They went on to list top prospects by pos.-Cromartie was farther down the list, 8th I think-projected as a 3rd rounder. You along with Mayock from NFL network are very high on him (a comparison to Deion Sanders was made by FSU). I'm guessing we'll see his stock rise as he proves he's over his injury? Say Miami gets a QB signed by draft day (Brees, Ramsey etc.) Do you think Miami gets Cromartie @ 16? Or do you feel there's a bigger need there? like OL? then address a DB in the 2nd round? any chance Cromartie falls to the 2nd?

 

[ckparrothead]

Hey Boom
I was glancing thru USA today's Sportsweekly today, they have their 'top 64'.
I didn't see Cromartie in there anywhere. They went on to list top prospects by pos.-Cromartie was farther down the list, 8th I think-projected as a 3rd rounder. You along with Mayock from NFL network are very high on him (a comparison to Deion Sanders was made by FSU). I'm guessing we'll see his stock rise as he proves he's over his injury? Say Miami gets a QB signed by draft day (Brees, Ramsey etc.) Do you think Miami gets Cromartie @ 16? Or do you feel there's a bigger need there? like OL? then address a DB in the 2nd round? any chance Cromartie falls to the 2nd?

You know, I'm starting to gather a little respect for Mike Mayock. He called Jay Cutler's meteoric rise a LONG time ago, and by the time all is said and done his prognostication that Jay Cutler will be the top QB taken in the draft may turn out correct. As things stand I've been convinced since before the Senior Bowl that Tennessee will take him. Maybe New Orleans doesn't even give them the chance.

I think Boomer and I agree that if Cromartie's workout numbers match the things we're hearing he is doing in private workouts, he could even be gone by pick #16. Right now I think Boomer and I agree that we'd have him ranked very highly, probably above Winston Justice. We need OL, no doubt about that, but with Sam likely a goner either this off season or the next, we need our future #1 corner too. Travis Daniels and Will Poole are both #2 types...the kind of guys that will help give us good corner depth for years hopefully...but Cromartie can be that ace in the hole guy.