Overrated/Underrated

[nopony]

Wow, someone had to go and turn this into a discrimination thread.......

Why is it that you absolutely cannot have a discussion on legitimate positives and negatives of an african american person without someone turning the whole situation into a racial argument.
Dosen't matter what the topic is, someone inevitably will turn it into that.

Did anyone accuse the NFL as being racist against Asians because not one team in the NFL drated Timmy Chang? After all, he was the all time leading passer in NCAA history.

The fact that this came up......... It's pretty damn pathetic. :shakeno:

No, I'll tell you what's pathetic...

Pathetic is seeing dozens of people say "Vince Young sucks like Vick"... despite the fact that the only things they have in common is athleticism and skin color.

Pathetic is reading someone on here say "I don't know anything about Vince Young, but something tells me he isn't half as smart as Matt Leinart."

Pathetic is reading someone on here name every single black quarterback in football and say "they're all the same."

Pathetic is reading on another message board that "Black quarterbacks aren't smart enough to be good quarterbacks"

Pathetic is people thinking I'm saying they hate black people instead of what I am saying: "SOME people are making assumptions based on race." People who never watched Young play are saying he sucks because Vick sucks.

IT IS PERFECTLY LEGITIMATE TO NOT LIKE YOUNG AS A PLAYER. There are a lot of very intelligent people on here with legitimate concerns about Young. I disagree with most of them, but I respect them. I am not talking about them.



But here's the bottom line. I doubt I will get honest responses, but I'm going to ask anyway...

And remember... I am not talking about what YOU believe, but to the Vince Young backlash as a whole...

If Vince Young did everything exactly as he did... won the rose bowl the same way he did... led the nation in passing the same way he did... but he was white... close your eyes and imagine that... the performance turned in by Vick this year, but by a white phenomenum...

Do you think the general overall reaction to Young would be exactly the same?

I don't. I think many of the bashers would not be bashers. Not all, of course, but many. I think a white quarterback doing that on that national stage against that competition... he'd be the football Jesus.

And I think if you imagine that scenario honestly, you will see the same.

 

[nopony]

there will always be tons of racism. it's been around for hundreds and thousands of years. and it's natural to be "fearful" of something/someone different. just how human nature is.

there's a big difference between actually treating someone differently or unfairly or unjustly because of their race and just assuming a black QB is a run-first player (most are, coincidently).

I think all of that is true. I have tried to make it very clear that i am not saying people on here hate black people. I am saying judgements are made, unfairly, because of his skin color by SOME people. That's all.

 

[nopony]

I think the pathetic part is that they may have a point. They can bring it up and have a good discussion about it.

For instance if Jay Culter was black there would be people on this board who would call him a running quarterback.

Also if Vince Young were white, he would be compared to Steve Young and not Randle Cunningham.

I do believe just like Steve Young, Vince Young will be great if he could get his mechanics down.

Good examples. And thank you. I don't like it any more than anyone else when people cry wolf with racism or sexual harrassment, etc. But there are times when it is worthy of discussion.

 

[Coral Reefer]

I think the pathetic part is that they may have a point. They can bring it up and have a good discussion about it.

For instance if Jay Culter was black there would be people on this board who would call him a running quarterback.

Also if Vince Young were white, he would be compared to Steve Young and not Randle Cunningham.

.

That's your perogative to feel that way.
It dosen't make it true and I couldn't disagree with you more.

I guess if Drew Bledsoe was black he would have been called a running QB as well by all of us who are blinded to actual traits/talents/tendencies of a player because all we see is skin color?

Never saw anyone on here claiming that Byron Leftwich or Steve Mcnair were "running" QB's.......... guess they're white.......

What many of you who pull this argument out at any instance fail to recognize is that you alienate many people who may not have a racist bone in their body.

How you ask?

It's just a wee bit insulting to accuse anyone of having racist reasons for bringing up legitimate points of discussion.

 

[Pennington's Rocket Arm]

young is already a "football jesus." and stop saying he shares nothing with vick. they have a lot in common, and it's not just their race and athletic ability. and even if people are unfairly comparing him to vick, can you blame them? if someone who knows nothing of college football sees his stats in the rose bowl where he ran for 200 yards, or most of the highlights they show of him on sportscenter, which is mostly running plays, what do you expect them to think? it's not just because he's black.

 

[Pennington's Rocket Arm]

Also if Vince Young were white, he would be compared to Steve Young and not Randle Cunningham.

it goes both ways, though. and it's done by every scout pretty much. every white receiver i see is compared to another white receiver. white linebackers are compared to white linebackers. white QBs to white QBs, black QBs to black QBs. generally the comparisons work, though. i think young is a lot more like cunningham at this point than steve young. but i also think he's a lot like alex smith last year.

 

[Dol-Fan Dupree]

That's your perogative to feel that way.
It dosen't make it true and I couldn't disagree with you more.

I guess if Drew Bledsoe was black he would have been called a running QB as well by all of us who are blinded to actual traits/talents/tendencies of a player because all we see is skin color?

Never saw anyone on here claiming that Byron Leftwich or Steve Mcnair were "running" QB's.......... guess they're white.......

What many of you who pull this argument out at any instance fail to recognize is that you alienate many people who may not have a racist bone in their body.

How you ask?

It's just a wee bit insulting to accuse anyone of having racist reasons for bringing up legitimate points of discussion.

You didn't read that thread where someone claimed Byron Leftwich was a running quarterback? If Drew Bledsoe was black someone would call him a running quarterback. I have not doubt in my mind since I have seen it a couple of times with Leftwich.

I have read comparisons to Vick and Young when they are totally different quarterbacks in every sense of the word. In fact they even have totally different running styles. If you can pick one quarterback that Young runs like it would be Steve Young. Where are those comparisons?

What you don't see is that your blatent disregard of "oh he is another insane racism jerk" is just as bad as the people who bring up racism everywhere.

I guess I know it is true because I have seen it with my own eyes multiple times. Maybe you just have your eyes closed.

 

[nopony]

Never saw anyone on here claiming that Byron Leftwich or Steve Mcnair were "running" QB's.......... guess they're white.......

Gee, I sure have seen people on here saying EXACTLY that.

young is already a "football jesus." and stop saying he shares nothing with vick. they have a lot in common, and it's not just their race and athletic ability. and even if people are unfairly comparing him to vick, can you blame them? if someone who knows nothing of college football sees his stats in the rose bowl where he ran for 200 yards, or most of the highlights they show of him on sportscenter, which is mostly running plays, what do you expect them to think? it's not just because he's black.

Let's see... he threw for three times as much as he ran this year... as many passing yards as, say, jay Cutler... highest rated passer in college football... Yeah, I think there are better comparisons.

And the thing about the Vick comparisons is that the ones i am referring to are not "wow, he can run!" They are "Vince Young sucks! He can't pass!" which is patently ridiculous.

If people are reminded of Vick when they watch the game? No problem at all. Perfectly natural. If people assume they are the same? That's where it gets wrong.

 

[Dol-Fan Dupree]

young is already a "football jesus." and stop saying he shares nothing with vick. they have a lot in common, and it's not just their race and athletic ability. and even if people are unfairly comparing him to vick, can you blame them? if someone who knows nothing of college football sees his stats in the rose bowl where he ran for 200 yards, or most of the highlights they show of him on sportscenter, which is mostly running plays, what do you expect them to think? it's not just because he's black.

Vick is a speed runner. Young is a power runner. Vick is small and frigile. Young is big and tough. Vick has a very strong arm. Young is much more a finesse passer. Vick couldn't read a defense to save his life. Young would have his life saved.

Young looks much more like Cullpepper or Tuiassappopo than he does Vick.

 

[Dol-Fan Dupree]

it goes both ways, though. and it's done by every scout pretty much. every white receiver i see is compared to another white receiver. white linebackers are compared to white linebackers. white QBs to white QBs, black QBs to black QBs. generally the comparisons work, though. i think young is a lot more like cunningham at this point than steve young. but i also think he's a lot like alex smith last year.

I do think that is just as wrong. I do think that and get on people who say that Wes Welker is another Ed McCaffery. Which of course is totally wrong.

Cunningham is also a speed guy. With tall and spindly legs. Steve was a power running guy. With big arm and bad mechanics. Vince is a power runner with big arm and bad mechanics.

 

[Pennington's Rocket Arm]

And the thing about the Vick comparisons is that the ones i am referring to are not "wow, he can run!" They are "Vince Young sucks! He can't pass!" which is patently ridiculous.

i don't know if his passing style converts at all to the NFL.

 

[Dol-Fan Dupree]

i don't know if his passing style converts at all to the NFL.

explain his passing style, why it doesn't convert and why he couldn't correct it?

 

[Coral Reefer]

What you don't see is that your blatent disregard of "oh he is another insane racism jerk" is just as bad as the people who bring up racism everywhere.
.

Well great, then were both equally ignorant on the issue.

The point is that with the original post Pony made a statement used a blanket insinuation that everyone who is against Young holds that assumption just because he's black. He used that argument to further his by invalidating anyone elses argument as being clouded by racism.

It was flat out wrong in it's use IMO.

You didn't read that thread where someone claimed Byron Leftwich was a running quarterback? .

No I didn'nt see that.
That is quite funny.

There's always going to be idiots and there will always be racism within any race.

It does not mean the vast majority hold that belief however and that's why to me it was out of line to bring that up in the context that it was.

If you took a poll of everyone on this site, I doubt you'd find even 5% that would believe that Byron Leftwich or Steve Mcnair is a run first QB. At least I hope we would'nt.

 

[Pennington's Rocket Arm]

he's in a shotgun a lot, behind a great offensive line where he feels no pressure, running some option, and throwing to a lot of stationary wide-open receivers. rarely does he face a defense where a safety isn't in the box, and even when one of his receivers is covered, they're talented enough to make a play on the ball over the DB. whether he can correct it or not is a question. that's why i think he's a big risk, as is the other developmental guys; cutler, jacobs, mcneal, etc.

 

[Dol-Fan Dupree]

Well great, then were both equally ignorant on the issue.

The point is that with the original post Pony made a statement used a blanket insinuation that everyone who is against Young holds that assumption just because he's black. He used that argument to further his by invalidating anyone elses argument as being clouded by racism.

It was flat out wrong in it's use IMO.





No I didn'nt see that.
That is quite funny.

There's always going to be idiots and there will always be racism within any race.

It does not mean the vast majority hold that belief however and that's why to me it was out of line to bring that up in the context that it was.

If you took a poll of everyone on this site, I doubt you'd find even 5% that would believe that Byron Leftwich or Steve Mcnair is a run first QB. At least I hope we would'nt.

I don't agree with his use of it, however I do think that if the races were switched I would be reading totally different things about both quarterbacks. You would see stupid Culter = Vick arguements.

I also disagree with NoPony because last year people wanted McPhearson even though that guy was crap.

However I do see it every day. I do believe the numbers for Leftwich would be at least 10% and the number for McNair would be around 35%. I think the number for Bledsoe would be around 2% and the number of Big Ben would be less than 10%.