Quinn & Russell vs. Top Defenses

[phinphanforever]

Care to clarify here? Which argument are you taking? That Brady Quinn does not perform well during big GAMES, or that Brady Quinn does not perform well against good defenses?

If Michigan is ranked #3 at the time Notre Dame plays them, you can DAMN WELL expect everyone in South Bend were treating it like the biggest damn game of the year, at the time they were playing them.

And if you want to know how Quinn did against good defenses in general, you can just scroll right up and read the first post in this thread.

Either way, this argument you've made here is defunct.

Notre Dame seems to think every game they play is the 'biggest damn game of the year'. In fact, most Notre Dame supporters want the rest of the country to think they are involved in the 'biggest damn game of the year' , every game, every year
And if you want to know how Quinn did against good defenses, don't bother reading the first thread in this post. Take a look at post#29 and #42. They clearly prove that the first thread has no statistical merit. In other words, they have shown that the argument presented in the first post in this thread is 'defunct', or stated more simply, is just bunk.

 

[Regan21286]

you're right, that's not what I meant to say...I meant to say he's garbage in big games. he did step up with the game on the line against those pac-10 teams over the past 2 years (ucla, stanford, usc) that are known for their great defenses :rolleyes2

USC did have a pretty decent defense that year as did UCLA.

The UCLA game - whew. The UCLA coach handed Notre Dame the game. He looked like a deer in headlights. He called the most conservative gameplan in the waning minutes I have ever seen. He gave Quinn multiple opportunities against his prevent defense. And as the saying goes - the only thing a prevent defense does is prevent wins. Quinn should never have been losing to UCLA in the first place.

Quinn still won right? We had a few games that we should never have lost last season (Houston, anyone?) as well. As long as 11 guys on defense aren't just standing there, it's still a defense. A prevent defense is meant to stop a big play but Quinn, unfortunately for us, made the said big play.

 

[ckparrothead]

USC did have a pretty decent defense that year as did UCLA.



Quinn still won right? We had a few games that we should never have lost last season (Houston, anyone?) as well. As long as 11 guys on defense aren't just standing there, it's still a defense. A prevent defense is meant to stop a big play but Quinn, unfortunately for us, made the said big play.

What will really bake your noodle is the argument that the near-win against USC doesn't count because a loss is a loss, but that the UCLA win should count less because the coach supposedly got conservative.

 

[Regan21286]

What will really bake your noodle is the argument that the near-win against USC doesn't count because a loss is a loss, but that the UCLA win should count less because the coach supposedly got conservative.

Haha, that's Karl Dorrell for you. He's our Wanny almost to a T. We actually showed less of a prevent in the waning minutes (save for the last play). But you could look at it differently as the fact that our offense and defense isn't geared for conservative play.Trying to run the clock out with our anemic running game gave USC another chance to win it. They just didn't come through after being given umpteenth opportunities, but we did again. That was different from Quinn in that he actually made use of the fewer opportunities given to him.

 

[Regina Phin]

All you're talking about is the hype surrounding the game. This does not matter. It is the quality of the opponent.
To answer your Oakland and Miami analogy - the answer is yes, that Miami could not win big games. If Oakland was great and Miami could not beat them, the answer is pretty apparent.

That's a pretty black and white view of things.

The hype surrounding the game doesn't matter - the quality of the opponent does?

I think it's pretty clearly shown (and no, I don't have a bunch of games or stats, but just hold on a sec before you flame me to death) that the hype surrounding big games has an effect on the players that are playing in it. Going to a school like Notre Dame, where they do treat every game like it's the super bowl, definitely has to place a lot of extra stress and pressure on the "star QB."

If they're going up against a team that is ranked #3 - whether they are overrated or not - I think that the pressure is going to be cranked up pretty high. I don't see how that can't be factored into it.

 

[kpcane]

USC did have a pretty decent defense that year as did UCLA.



Quinn still won right? We had a few games that we should never have lost last season (Houston, anyone?) as well. As long as 11 guys on defense aren't just standing there, it's still a defense. A prevent defense is meant to stop a big play but Quinn, unfortunately for us, made the said big play.

I just looked at the final drive and will give you my anaylsis.

1st play - great 18-yard pass to samardjzia or however you spell his name.
2nd play - no pass rush whatsoever. the soft defense gives up the 14 yard play after the receiver comes back in. good decision making, but seems like an easy enough play for any qb to make.
3rd play - no pass rush again. this allows quinn to pump fake and still have loads and loads of time to let JS beat the safety (who bit terribly on the play fake) and hit him 15 yards downfield, JS runs for 30 more yards.

The defense looked as scared as their coach did. Quinn made some good plays, but that defense was out of position on the last play, and the second play was a result of the prevent defense. I will give him credit for the first play...it was really nice. But I don't think that Quinn was anything spectacular on the other two plays.

This is what I looked at - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z27D8K4F-JM

 

[kpcane]

What will really bake your noodle is the argument that the near-win against USC doesn't count because a loss is a loss, but that the UCLA win should count less because the coach supposedly got conservative.

Haha...you get so much respect around here man, but you've resorted to putting words in my mouth, and not responding to me, but rather talking negatively about me to another poster....wow.

 

[kpcane]

That's a pretty black and white view of things.

The hype surrounding the game doesn't matter - the quality of the opponent does?

I think it's pretty clearly shown (and no, I don't have a bunch of games or stats, but just hold on a sec before you flame me to death) that the hype surrounding big games has an effect on the players that are playing in it. Going to a school like Notre Dame, where they do treat every game like it's the super bowl, definitely has to place a lot of extra stress and pressure on the "star QB."

If they're going up against a team that is ranked #3 - whether they are overrated or not - I think that the pressure is going to be cranked up pretty high. I don't see how that can't be factored into it.

It might have an effect for the first 3 minutes, but after that, it's just the guys playing ball. That's what the football players down here are always saying.

 

[Boomer]

2) Yeah he went into Tennessee and beat a pretty good team in 2004. Tennessee was #9 going into the game, and finished at #13. A good win.
The second time he beat them, he beat an unranked, non-bowl eligible team. They were unranked when they played them, and finished the season unranked. Not sure where this 'top 5 and top 10' is coming from.

You're right. I took that from memory without checking my old facts as they weren't in front of me at the time, being as I was, at work. I apologise for that.

 

[kpcane]

You're right. I took that from memory without checking my old facts as they weren't in front of me at the time, being as I was, at work. I apologise for that.

dude, my great grandmother knew tennessee was awful last year

 

[YetanotherFan]

Listen, I think some people are really misunderstanding the scope of this study, especially Da Fins here. This isn't my once-and-for-all proof that Brady Quinn is the end-all, be-all of quarterback prospects. This isn't even a proof that Brady Quinn is better than Jamarcus Russell.

An active criticism about Brady Quinn is that he performs poorly during games against quality defense.

I'm not talking about the "plays bad during big games" thing. I'm talking about how some people think that when Quinn goes up against a good defense, he performs poorly from a personal responsibility perspective (e.g. throwing interceptions, not completing passes, not pushing the ball down the field, not scoring TDs, etc).

All this study was meant to show was that if you're going to go with that criticism against Brady Quinn, you have to recognize that the criticism is just as sharp, if not sharper, against Jamarcus Russell. That's it.[/quote]


CK, interesting post man. Thank you for taking the time. Maybe the post was to long for some and maybe they fully did not comprehend what you where trying to say, but this thread got way outta hand IMO. I highlighted some of the main parts of your post that others should really take light on. From reading your main post, your view was clear to me.

1) showed me, through a form of statistical analysis, that Brady Quinn performed well against the better, but not the same, competition in the NCAA

2) showed me, through a form of statistical analysis, that Jamarcus Russell performed well against the better, but not the same, competition in the NCAA

3) I inferred from your post that just because BQ did not win some of the so called "big games" that he is any way inferior to JR or that he cant be successful in the NFL. Just because your TEAM doesnt win should not translate into being a bust at the next level. The proof should be in the game film.

 

[Springveldt]

And if you want to know how Quinn did against good defenses, don't bother reading the first thread in this post. Take a look at post#29 and #42. They clearly prove that the first thread has no statistical merit. In other words, they have shown that the argument presented in the first post in this thread is 'defunct', or stated more simply, is just bunk.

Posts #29 and #42 were saying that the first post had no statistical merit for comparison between 2 QB's since the defences were different, etc. Go back and read them again.
The first post does have merit if you take it as just Brady Quinn's performances against good defences and what it proves is that he plays pretty damn well against good defences but his supporting cast sucks, that's why his team loses.
Last time I checked Brady Quinn only plays the QB spot for Notre Dame, I'm pretty sure their are 21 other starters (23 if you count the kicker and punter but they aren't real football players :)) out there that have something to do with the outcome of the game as well.

 

[ckparrothead]

Posts #29 and #42 were saying that the first post had no statistical merit for comparison between 2 QB's since the defences were different, etc. Go back and read them again.
The first post does have merit if you take it as just Brady Quinn's performances against good defences and what it proves is that he plays pretty damn well against good defences but his supporting cast sucks, that's why his team loses.
Last time I checked Brady Quinn only plays the QB spot for Notre Dame, I'm pretty sure their are 21 other starters (23 if you count the kicker and punter but they aren't real football players :)) out there that have something to do with the outcome of the game as well.

Though the way Brady Quinn worked hard and tested in his agility and speed drills, the guy is as athletic as most linebackers, safeties...and heck, even some corners and wide receivers.

 

[Boomer]

dude, my great grandmother knew tennessee was awful last year

Notre Dame didn't play Tennessee last year.

 

[Jaj]

Though the way Brady Quinn worked hard and tested in his agility and speed drills, the guy is as athletic as most linebackers, safeties...and heck, even some corners and wide receivers.

Let's not push it there, but yes he's very athletic. More of a John Beck like I made myself rather than Jamarcus Russell.