Which draft scenario is most appealing to you?

[j-off-her-doll]

I think we have a difference of opinion of where the playmaking begins. You see Austin as a playmaker which I could agree is true. I see Tanne as the most important playmaker on the field and he showed how much better he was when healthy. He can't make plays on his backside. Look at the good QBs in the game, they make their WRs better- rarely the other way around. Look at good qb/WR combos without a good line (see bears & lions). No playoffs. Drafting OL is not sexy, but 4000 yard Tanne is. 1000 yard Miller is. OL helps both of those happen. Austin doesn't - or at least not nearly as much impact.

Also, look at who you have drafting. If Al Davis were drafting we would have Austin. We have two guys with a big history of the OL and drafting OL. They also tied their job to Tanne. They brought in WRs in the offseason and now it's inevitable they draft OL to protect him.

So all this Austin talk is fan man-crush. Understandable man-crush. With our Coach and GMs history, team needs, offseason, and available players in rd 1 we will not be seeing Austin come our way. Prob round 3 though - feel like they will pick up a quick WR there.

I have a real problem with the idea that SB Competing QB's consistently make their WR's better - as opposed to the opposite. And if we're not talking about QB's who are competing for SB's, what are we talking about? Look at the WR groups on the last three SB Winners: Smith/Boldin/Jones (with a LT who appeared to be done as a player); Nicks/Cruz/Manningham (with major issues on the O-line); Jennings/Nelson/Driver/Jones (again, with an average-at-best O-line).

 

[Ruckus45]

According Football Outsider the Ravens were ranked 6th in run blocking and 14th at the pass blocking last year, NYG were 28 in run blocking but 6 in pass blocking in 2011, and GB was horrible. Of the top 10 teams in run blocking last year 8 made the playoffs and of the top 10 teams in pass blocking last year 7 made the playoffs. Of the bottom 10 in run blocking only 3 made the playoffs while in the bottom 10 in pass blocking only 4 made the playoffs. That's pretty telling. Im not saying we need to have an elite line - but our line ranked 21st in run and 17 in pass blocking and we lost Jake Long. Its pretty important to get the quality of out line play up.

I don't see how you have a problem with good QBs making players better. Good QBs throw their WRs open, put the ball in places for the WR to make plays - or sometimes even a catch. Sure, sometimes the WR helps out the QB by making some crazy catch, but you have to also realize that ball was thrown there usually because it is the only place either can make a play. If WRs could make QBs better I would expect more out of the QB carousel in Arizona.

 

[SMadison29]

The best scenario is to hope Detroit takes Ansah at 5, Cleveland takes Milliner at 6, & Fisher is still on the board for Arizona to take at 7 allowing us to trade up with Buffalo or the Jets to take Lane Johnson without giving up either one of our second rounders. I'm not in favor of any scenario where we trade one of our second rounders for anyone in this draft. It's not too often we have multiple premium picks & with obvious long term holes at OT, CB, DE, DT, TE, & FS we're going to need those picks.

 

[MoFinz]

It was not a comparison. It was an example. A guy that size can dominate the middle of the field. End of THAT discussion. You say Harvin is great - using him as a comparison point for Austin, I assume - and then list his drawbacks, none of which are shared by Austin. Essentially, YOU say that Austin can be a great player if he doesn't have the drawbacks he doesn't have.

No, i'm saying using 12 on Austin seems a little silly when we have bigger holes to fill...like a CB to start opposite Grimes....or a LT to protect our franchise QB, or a DE to take some pressure off of Wake.....and speedy little playmakers can be found in the later rounds of this draft (like Welker was)

And what kind of weaknesses does Austin bring to the table....you're drooling all over his jock, but you havent listed any shortcomings in his game. Did you lavish all your praise on Ginn as well...we had bigger holes, went with the speedy playmaker who could bust open games and look where that went.

Just sayings all......

 

[j-off-her-doll]

According Football Outsider the Ravens were ranked 6th in run blocking and 14th at the pass blocking last year, NYG were 28 in run blocking but 6 in pass blocking in 2011, and GB was horrible. Of the top 10 teams in run blocking last year 8 made the playoffs and of the top 10 teams in pass blocking last year 7 made the playoffs. Of the bottom 10 in run blocking only 3 made the playoffs while in the bottom 10 in pass blocking only 4 made the playoffs. That's pretty telling. Im not saying we need to have an elite line - but our line ranked 21st in run and 17 in pass blocking and we lost Jake Long. Its pretty important to get the quality of out line play up.

I don't see how you have a problem with good QBs making players better. Good QBs throw their WRs open, put the ball in places for the WR to make plays - or sometimes even a catch. Sure, sometimes the WR helps out the QB by making some crazy catch, but you have to also realize that ball was thrown there usually because it is the only place either can make a play. If WRs could make QBs better I would expect more out of the QB carousel in Arizona.

So the only way WR's make a QB look better is by making some crazy catch? Obviously I was wasting my time entering into this discussion.

 

[hunt4luck000]

You only say that because it's been forever since the Dolphins have had a good tight end. In fact, the history of the past 20 or so years is crap at the position.

You don't even know what it feels like to have a great TE on your team. You only know how difficult it is to defend great TE's with them burning Miami's defense time and time again like it's going out of style.

Tyler Eifert would be the best & most talented TE in Dolphins history when all is said and done,, if Miami were lucky enough to land him. He would open up the offense quite a bit and be Tannehill's (a young developing QB's) best friend, making our young QB a lot better in the process

I agree with that , Te is a must . maybe later with one of our 2nds we get hunter wr. i see red zone tds here...

 

[j-off-her-doll]

No, i'm saying using 12 on Austin seems a little silly when we have bigger holes to fill...like a CB to start opposite Grimes....or a LT to protect our franchise QB, or a DE to take some pressure off of Wake.....and speedy little playmakers can be found in the later rounds of this draft (like Welker was)

And what kind of weaknesses does Austin bring to the table....you're drooling all over his jock, but you havent listed any shortcomings in his game. Did you lavish all your praise on Ginn as well...we had bigger holes, went with the speedy playmaker who could bust open games and look where that went.

Just sayings all......

I was never a fan of Ginn. If you mean to compare Austin to Ginn, you've either never seen Austin play, or you don't know what you're looking at.

 

[Scotty P]

Austin is not worth the 12 pick TO US because he is undersized, doesnt address any of our needs, and not a consistent 3 down player. Out of a 12 you at very minimum want a guy who plays 3 downs almost every series. At most you want a guy who will start for you for 5 years with a few pro bowl appearances. You also don't address him at 12 TO US because we just resigned Hartline, and signed Gibson and Wallace to address the WR position. We also still have positions of need we tried to resign but didn't get done that can be addressed by guys at 12 who will come in and start 3 downs with a potential for elite status over time.

This pick isn't about emotion, it's about our needs being met by some really good players at 12. Tavon Austin isn't that guy.

Agreed. He would be a luxury pick that would leave us with just as many holes.

Now if someone said draft Eifert in the first (at 12 or potential trade down).......then draft a guy like Swope in the 3rd, that would make sense. Swope is pretty fast too, and would be an upgrade of Bess (he could be used as trade bait). This would make our team pretty untouchable from a speed and talent standpoint.

Then we could use our 2A pick for a CB and 2B for LT, or vice versa.

 

[PolitePolite]

Giving up only a 2nd for Milliner is a no brainer.

 

[Ruckus45]

So the only way WR's make a QB look better is by making some crazy catch? Obviously I was wasting my time entering into this discussion.

If that is all you got out of what I wrote maybe you are right - you shouldn't have entered into this discussion.

 

[j-off-her-doll]

Here's a way to make this simple.

Recent history has shown that you can make a SB and even win a SB with an average-to-below-average O-line.

Recent history has also shown that you have no chance of making the SB with average-to-below-average skill players on offense.

So what do we take away from that? Well, if you understand that 1+1=2, guys like T. Austin (who don't satisfy needs in some of our minds) are going to give you a better shot at competing for a SB than guys like L. Johnson. If you have a chance to add an explosive player, you do it. You don't have the luxury of bypassing explosive players for guys who will make your roster look more complete on paper.

 

[Ruckus45]

Well, you might try to make it simple but your still not correct. Like I said before, 8 of the top 10 OL in Run Blocking and 7 of the top 10 OL in Pass Blocking made the playoffs last year while only 3 and 4 of the bottom teams respectively did. The trend clearly shows that the better your OL is the better the chance you have of making the playoffs. Of the top 10 WRs with a min of 50 receptions only 5 of their teams made the playoffs. Of the Super Bowl teams SF had Crabtree rated 9th and Baltimore didn't a receiver ranked until Bolden at 29th.

Furthermore 3 out of the last 4 Super Bowl teams ranked in the top 6 of Run Blocking with the only exception being the Giants which were an anomaly in most categories that year anyway. New England has been in the top 10 in Run Blocking since 2007 and top 10 in pass blocking since 2007 except in 08. Interestingly 2008 was our best average OL and the year we made the playoffs.

So what do you take away from that? I take away that stats show that you are more likely to be in the playoffs with a top 10 OL. Stats show me an elite Run Blocking OL gives you a better shot at the Super Bowl. WRs are important but do not have any statistical gauge on your ability to make the playoffs.

Why do I think that is? A top 10 OL lets your playmakers do whats best - make plays. The number 1 playmaker on the field is the QB. They have the most TDs at the end of a season by and individual and the most yards. The OL keeps him up. The top 10 Run Blocking OLs extend plays with 3rd and 1 and goal line stands to punch in the ball. So for our team the stats show that L Johnson, Cooper, Warmack, Fisher, or Joekel will give us a better chance at getting into the playoffs than Austin.

 

[j-off-her-doll]

Well, you might try to make it simple but your still not correct. Like I said before, 8 of the top 10 OL in Run Blocking and 7 of the top 10 OL in Pass Blocking made the playoffs last year while only 3 and 4 of the bottom teams respectively did. The trend clearly shows that the better your OL is the better the chance you have of making the playoffs. Of the top 10 WRs with a min of 50 receptions only 5 of their teams made the playoffs. Of the Super Bowl teams SF had Crabtree rated 9th and Baltimore didn't a receiver ranked until Bolden at 29th.

Furthermore 3 out of the last 4 Super Bowl teams ranked in the top 6 of Run Blocking with the only exception being the Giants which were an anomaly in most categories that year anyway. New England has been in the top 10 in Run Blocking since 2007 and top 10 in pass blocking since 2007 except in 08. Interestingly 2008 was our best average OL and the year we made the playoffs.

So what do you take away from that? I take away that stats show that you are more likely to be in the playoffs with a top 10 OL. Stats show me an elite Run Blocking OL gives you a better shot at the Super Bowl. WRs are important but do not have any statistical gauge on your ability to make the playoffs.

Why do I think that is? A top 10 OL lets your playmakers do whats best - make plays. The number 1 playmaker on the field is the QB. They have the most TDs at the end of a season by and individual and the most yards. The OL keeps him up. The top 10 Run Blocking OLs extend plays with 3rd and 1 and goal line stands to punch in the ball. So for our team the stats show that L Johnson, Cooper, Warmack, Fisher, or Joekel will give us a better chance at getting into the playoffs than Austin.

If you don't have playmakers, who is the offensive line allowing to do what? Two of the last three SB Champions had sub-par run-blocking O-lines. The Steelers and Colts also had sub-par run-blocking O-lines (two recent SB challengers). But all of the teams in question did have great skill players on offense. The Giants/Patriots game is a good example. The Patriots had the better QB and the better O-line. The Giants had the better WR's and the better pass rush. The talent at WR and pass rush allowed the team with the lesser QB to win.

How many of the bottom receiving units made the playoffs?

 

[Ruckus45]

We brought in playmakers this year. This isn't Madden where you can bring in everybody you want so we will prob look to bring in more next year. This year we still need Tanne on his feet. You're right, the NYG and GB and sub par run blocking OL but the majority of teams in the playoffs and Super Bowl didn't. I just proved that.

We are not a SB team this year but we could be a playoff team. Fix the OL this year, make the playoffs, and I'll be right with you next year screaming for guys like Austin. Heck, I still wouldn't mind taking a risk on one in later rounds as long as OL is first. Welker, Cruz, Amendola, and Bess were all UDFA. Might get a gem. If not, address next year.

Don't know about bottom receiving units - doesn't have that as a category. My guess is they are with a subpar QB though.

 

[Morey161]

Other. I don't want to trade up for anyone. I want to use our extra picks for get more solid players.