Who will be the steal of the draft?

[SMadison29]

I think you're overstating things quite a bit.

For one thing I would rather have a player that actually quit the team literally because of unreconcileable differences between himself and the coaching staff, than a guy that quit metaphorically like you said at the beginning.

For another, Mike Williams of Syracuse quit on Doug Marrone and his staff too. You know what he's done since he joined the NFL? How about catch 192 balls for 2728 yards and 23 touchdowns in 3 years. Hasn't been a problem in the locker room. In fact this year the Bucs were coached by a coach that most consider to be among the most strict and overbearing taskmasters in the entire NFL. Mike Williams has been fine. Caught for 1000 yards and 9 TDs, and is now in talks for a contract extension.

So you might want to revise your claims on what Marquess Wilson has or hasn't shown.

As for the allegations of abuse against the staff, I think you should really read up on the whole thing before you (poorly) recollect what was actually said, what was actually alleged, and what actually happened. Because you don't have your facts straight.

I don't want neither type of quitter on the team. Unreconcilable differences? The kid was afraid of hard work. I'm 100% sure I have recollected the story correctly. He was suspended for walking out on a workout, quit, lied about coach abuse, recanted the lie with another lie saying he didn't intend it to be construed that way.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/...se-mike-leach-washington-state_n_2111238.html

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/ncaaf...t-mike-leach-washington-172000214--ncaaf.html

Although you bring up a good point with Mike Williams quitting their circumstances were quite a bit different. Williams had academic problems then the car accident which put him on the verge of being suspended again. Wilson had no prior history of bad behavior. It just shows bad character.

 

[Buddy]

I like Lonnie Pryor quite a bit but didn't know how the transition to RB would work. The only negative I can say about him is he seems to fumble a bit though not horribly. I need to look up that stat to ensure I am not mistaken.

I must have got my RB confused, Pryor apparently only had 1 fumble in 41games and averaged 8.0 YPC and had 8 TD this season. He split carries with a lot of good backs and can catch. I would like to have him for sure.

 

[Buddy]

He's only fumbled once in his entire career, in the 4th quarter against USF. He's had 175 total touches (carries, receiving, kickoffs) and that one is the lone fumble.... recovered by Florida St.

My bad, you are correct. I got my guys confused...hate it when that happens.

 

[ckparrothead]

I think the difference with Mike Williams was that he was facing a suspension by the University. He might as well have quit.

There's no question that Wilson belongs in the top 2 or 3 underclassman WR's in this draft in terms of talent, but I have questions regarding his coachability and attitude.

The truth lies somewhere in the middle in my opinion.

I believe that Wilson was lazy and had terrible practice habits. I also know that Coach Leach is a little...... different, shall we say... and doesn't always treat his kids in a fair manner. But the bottom line is, Wilson is the only kid that quit. He was trying to make an example out of the most talented player he had in order to get everyone to turn around their poor practice habits, because the team wasn't going to quit losing until it happened.

Coaches will try different methods to get their point across, and perhaps Leach went too far. Then again, perhaps he didn't. Perhaps the majority of the blame falls squarely on Wilson.

Joe Namath was the most hard to handle, wreckless, difficult to deal with player Bear Bryant ever had. All he wanted to do was stay out all night partying and drinking. He was the worst. Bear even kicked him off the team once because of it. Bear turned the tables on Joe...

Instead of everyone else trying to be responsible for Joe and making sure he was in the hotel room at curfew and doing what he was supposed to be doing, Bear put his biggest problem child in charge of the entire team... Joe had to make sure they were the one's in their room at curfew and doing what they were supposed to be doing.

If everyone quit everytime they felt like were treated "unfairly", it would require nothing to persevere. I don't believe for a second that Marquess Wilson couldn't have gotten on Mike Leach's good side if he wanted to be. He just didn't want to have to earn it. He wanted it automatically while expecting the coaching staff to coddle him and deal with his poor practice habits and entitled attitude.

I think the Mike Williams situation was just as bad if not worse. Academic cheating, to which he NEVER confessed to, other issues during practices, finally screwing up by getting caught partying late at night on the way back from a local casino. His suspension wasn't necessarily going to be a year, as I recall. But rather than face it he just quit. Then he tried to come back. Then Marrone made it clear he's better off not doing so.

But I share your opinion that this is a situation where bad meets bad and creates really bad. I don't think Marquess Wilson is a diligent worker that does everything right.

But at the same time, everything I've read, heard and seen about Mike Leach over the last couple of years makes me not respect him. At all. He seems to regard his players like you would an animal. And that's with the press. That's one difference between himself and Nick Saban. Saban can be as much of a hard-@ss as anyone off the field, but in the press he will defend every kid. Mike Leach will openly call out their manhood with the press, and then treat them that way in practice.

And in this you're exactly right, he took the most talented player on the team and targeted him, as a means of getting the ship turned around. Don't be surprised when that player, who is a grown man, decides he really doesn't need to take that kind of crap.

But the most important thing in all this is not some romanticized concept of justice, whose fault it is, who is to blame, etc. The most important thing is determining whether a player can be a valuable asset to an NFL organization or not.

There are very few coaches even in the NFL that would treat their players like Mike Leach treats his, IMO. And Miami's are not among them. Seeing Mike Williams become a valuable asset in the NFL, I would be emboldened to give him a chance and let his talent shine. He's not going to quit on a coach like Joe Philbin, that's for sure.

 

[j-off-her-doll]

Prior to the Combine, I'd have said the 3rd round is where he's sure to end up going. But he's really blowing the doors out of Lucas Oil Stadium so the 2nd round wouldn't be shocking.

What I just have to say is...don't make the same mistake Georgia did. He's incredibly athletic and so naturally you want him out in space and doing all these things. But all you're doing is slowing him down, giving him too much to think about, asking him to move around when he's really at his best going straight ahead. Just have him focus on one thing...rushing the passer. He has so much natural ability that if you let him do that from right end I don't think you'll regret it.

He's so much like Mark Anderson, IMO.

The three guys who are - at this point - infamous for having tremendous athletic ability, but who require a lot of projection, are Mingo, Ansah, and Jordan. Washington should probably lumped into that group. I'd draft him before I draft Asah or Jordan - if I'm looking for a 4-3 DE.

 

[ckparrothead]

The three guys who are - at this point - infamous for having tremendous athletic ability, but who require a lot of projection, are Mingo, Ansah, and Jordan. Washington should probably lumped into that group. I'd draft him before I draft Asah or Jordan - if I'm looking for a 4-3 DE.

I'm not sure I would lump Washington in with Ansah and Mingo to be honest.

With Dion Jordan, I don't even know that I agree this is a projection because I feel like I know I could plug him in at OLB in a 3-4 and he's going to succeed. People who say he's not strong or a good run defender need to check the tape. He's also smooth in space and can do things in coverage to an adequate degree for that position. He will get pass rush pressure by virtue of the position and the opportunities it will afford him. Whether he can earn more than that with his own ability as a pass rusher, that's what I don't know...but all the other stuff I feel like I know.

With Cornelius Washington I also feel like I know what I'd do with him and I know he'd be pretty good there. You have him rushing the passer. That's it. That's what you have him worrying about. Be Mark Anderson on the New England Patriots circa 2011, or on the Chicago Bears circa 2006. Let's not confuse you with a bunch of different responsibilities, let's use you as what you are. Maybe that means he's just a role player. But he could also develop into more of a Cliff Avril than a Mark Anderson, too. Either way I know what he is and I don't feel like I need to project it.

But Barkevious Mingo is going to have to play OLB when he's never played there before. And considering the KIND of player he is, he's going to have to be productive as a pass rusher even though he's not really been that thus far in college. That's a projection. That's where I get antsy about a guy.

To a degree, that's also true of Ziggy Ansah...but it's less of a projection for him to be a good run defender and high motor player. You've already seen that. You've already seen him play the way he would need to play to have value in the league. If he's got to move to 3-4 OLB, then that would be a little different. That injects more projection into it.

 

[Dolphinator530]

For those who do not know, Cornelius Washington was in a 3-4 at UGA and was at the 5 technique so the DE in a 3-4 so if you are worried about his stats you understand from our years in a 3-4 that linemen do not rack up stats.

He is def blowing up the combine and just recorded a 39" vertical so dude is making some money this weekend. I am with CK i see him as a true 4-3 DE and size wise is very close to Wake so def know he can hold up has strength has speed might be worth looking at in private workouts to see if he has the footwork and other stuff you need to see.

To be honest looking at that tape of the Senior Bowl he bullied Fisher a few times and looks like me made Pugh his bitch in that clip at least and def looks strong enough to set the edge vs the run.

so 2 questions for draft guru's
1) where is his value based on the picks we have?
2) where do you think he will go?

 

[j-off-her-doll]

I'm not sure I would lump Washington in with Ansah and Mingo to be honest.

With Dion Jordan, I don't even know that I agree this is a projection because I feel like I know I could plug him in at OLB in a 3-4 and he's going to succeed. People who say he's not strong or a good run defender need to check the tape. He's also smooth in space and can do things in coverage to an adequate degree for that position. He will get pass rush pressure by virtue of the position and the opportunities it will afford him. Whether he can earn more than that with his own ability as a pass rusher, that's what I don't know...but all the other stuff I feel like I know.

With Cornelius Washington I also feel like I know what I'd do with him and I know he'd be pretty good there. You have him rushing the passer. That's it. That's what you have him worrying about. Be Mark Anderson on the New England Patriots circa 2011, or on the Chicago Bears circa 2006. Let's not confuse you with a bunch of different responsibilities, let's use you as what you are. Maybe that means he's just a role player. But he could also develop into more of a Cliff Avril than a Mark Anderson, too. Either way I know what he is and I don't feel like I need to project it.

But Barkevious Mingo is going to have to play OLB when he's never played there before. And considering the KIND of player he is, he's going to have to be productive as a pass rusher even though he's not really been that thus far in college. That's a projection. That's where I get antsy about a guy.

To a degree, that's also true of Ziggy Ansah...but it's less of a projection for him to be a good run defender and high motor player. You've already seen that. You've already seen him play the way he would need to play to have value in the league. If he's got to move to 3-4 OLB, then that would be a little different. That injects more projection into it.

My thing is that for any of these guys to make good on their 1st Round grades, they have to be more productive pass rushers than they were in college. We're looking at their physical tools and deciding whether or not they lead us to believe that they will or won't be more productive. Washington is just as good an overall athlete as any of them. So I'm kind of left asking myself why I'd consider any of the other guys at 12 - if I think Washington will be there in the 2nd. More to the point, I think Washington is a better football player than Ansah - the guy he's closest to in size. So that's what I'm getting at with that grouping. They're different. I agree. But if you're looking for another rusher off the edge, and you're looking for a size/strength/speed guy to come in and contribute on passing downs while he develops into an every-down player, why wouldn't Washington be as high on your list as any of the other guys?

Jordan and Mingo obviously have more 3-4 in them, but I'm sure some 4-3 teams will have interest. If you're Miami, though, what makes Washington less attractive than the other three?

 

[Pachyderm_Wave]

I think the Mike Williams situation was just as bad if not worse. Academic cheating, to which he NEVER confessed to, other issues during practices, finally screwing up by getting caught partying late at night on the way back from a local casino. His suspension wasn't necessarily going to be a year, as I recall. But rather than face it he just quit. Then he tried to come back. Then Marrone made it clear he's better off not doing so.

But I share your opinion that this is a situation where bad meets bad and creates really bad. I don't think Marquess Wilson is a diligent worker that does everything right.

But at the same time, everything I've read, heard and seen about Mike Leach over the last couple of years makes me not respect him. At all. He seems to regard his players like you would an animal. And that's with the press. That's one difference between himself and Nick Saban. Saban can be as much of a hard-@ss as anyone off the field, but in the press he will defend every kid. Mike Leach will openly call out their manhood with the press, and then treat them that way in practice.

And in this you're exactly right, he took the most talented player on the team and targeted him, as a means of getting the ship turned around. Don't be surprised when that player, who is a grown man, decides he really doesn't need to take that kind of crap.

But the most important thing in all this is not some romanticized concept of justice, whose fault it is, who is to blame, etc. The most important thing is determining whether a player can be a valuable asset to an NFL organization or not.

There are very few coaches even in the NFL that would treat their players like Mike Leach treats his, IMO. And Miami's are not among them. Seeing Mike Williams become a valuable asset in the NFL, I would be emboldened to give him a chance and let his talent shine. He's not going to quit on a coach like Joe Philbin, that's for sure.

The bolded part right here surely sounds like a kid that's no doubt more of a fit for the NFL.. if you know what I mean.


I'd just always be careful in defending players that quit. Then again, some people just seem to be drawn to quitters.

Some quit because they know they have no future in it.... some quit because they can't hack it. Noel Devine, Dwight Jones, Jeff Demps, Marquess Wilson, Nick Florence, etc... there seems to be one every year nowdays, but the odds of him turning out to be a Mike Williams are obviously extremely slim.

 

[ckparrothead]

Jeff Demps didn't really quit. He got his Olympic silver medal and is a member of the New England Patriots.

 

[finfan54]

Tank Carradine is going to rise to where he's no longer really a steal. He's a great player, but I think there are indications he's going to be correctly valued.

Right now Marquess Wilson looks like one of the most underrated players in the Draft. To hear the media tell it, he'll get all the way into the 6th or 7th round. He's WAY better than that. He belongs in the top group of wide receivers, more so than a few guys that are considered in that group.

Every year there is one or two where your like what?

---------- Post added at 10:51 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:50 PM ----------

Matt Barkley, hey, its possible.

 

[lil tom digby]

Any input on Brandon Jenkins, the DE/OLB from Fla St? Liz Franc fx early in the college season.

 

[Phinsfan93]

Eric Reid- I might've missed something. What happened to his draft stock?
Marquess Wilson
John Boyett
Gerald Hodges
Jonathan Franklin

 

[hoops]

the steal of the draft imo will be ot lane johnson...

 

[SMadison29]

But I share your opinion that this is a situation where bad meets bad and creates really bad. I don't think Marquess Wilson is a diligent worker that does everything right.

But at the same time, everything I've read, heard and seen about Mike Leach over the last couple of years makes me not respect him. At all. He seems to regard his players like you would an animal. And that's with the press. That's one difference between himself and Nick Saban. Saban can be as much of a hard-@ss as anyone off the field, but in the press he will defend every kid. Mike Leach will openly call out their manhood with the press, and then treat them that way in practice.

And in this you're exactly right, he took the most talented player on the team and targeted him, as a means of getting the ship turned around. Don't be surprised when that player, who is a grown man, decides he really doesn't need to take that kind of crap.

But the most important thing in all this is not some romanticized concept of justice, whose fault it is, who is to blame, etc. The most important thing is determining whether a player can be a valuable asset to an NFL organization or not.

There are very few coaches even in the NFL that would treat their players like Mike Leach treats his, IMO. And Miami's are not among them. Seeing Mike Williams become a valuable asset in the NFL, I would be emboldened to give him a chance and let his talent shine. He's not going to quit on a coach like Joe Philbin, that's for sure.

I absolutely agree with you on Mike Leach, there's no way in hell I would let my son go play for him if it was the only FCS scholarship he had. However, after thinking about this some more today I don't fault Wilson as much as I previously did. Kids quit on their teams all of the time but not in the literal sense. When kids transfer out to other schools for more playing time or to a different system they're still quitting on their team. Wilson just did so late in his career & decided to go pro. No different than Arthur Brown quitting the U because he wasn't smart enough to transfer back home to Kansas St, no different than all of those Penn St kids that quit for greener pastures, no different than Lache Seastrunk leaving Oregon for Baylor because he wasn't getting an PT behind James & Barner. There's still a maturity issue with Wilson, he could've/would've/should've handle the situation differently.