Beck -vs- Leinhart

[rafael]

As a USC alum I've got to identify Leinart. But Leinart with 5% more arm strength makes this a non-question.

Leinart has far more variety of pace and loft than Beck. He can drop it off a roof top when necessary.

And the problem with Beck's low delivery is not merely batted down passes. That's the cheap and convenient reference point. It's all about angle of attack, similar to golf. When you have the arm and elbow going forward in ideal angle and proximity to your ear it's simple to adjust loft and make almost any throw. But now try that when the ball is low, out toward your side. At that point the wrist is more flat, the palm more open, and the successful permutations much more limited. It's why you see line drive throwers among QBs with low deliveries. Not much different than flat golf swings like Trevino's producing low shots, and not nearly the variety of a more upright contemporary like Nicklaus.

The only thing I noted about Beck last year is the release has to be repaired. The other stuff will work its way out, like ball security. He's actually decent in short passes but the arm dips too low on deeper throws.

I don't want this to sound like a knock on Leinart b/c I really liked him coming out but Beck has just as much touch. He also tends to throw from many release angles depending on the type of pass. Check out this video from the preseason.

http://s224.photobucket.com/albums/dd1/bytesandbits/?action=view&current=2007JBExhibitionPerf.flv

The last two passes in particular come out much higher. They're not perfectly over the top but they are far from flat trajectories.

I don't think people realize how good of a passer Beck is. I'm not a BYU fan but I live out west and being too much of a football junkie I watched several of Beck's games. The accuracy this kid has jumped off the screen at me more so than any QBs since Rivers and before that Aikman. To me this is the most important characteristic but he has everything else as a passer as well. His release is very fast (not Marino, but as fast as just about anybody else). He has incredible touch. So much so that people thought he lacked arm strength. This was also incorrect as we've all heard (or seen) his 70 yd pass (actually 65), the pass from his knees at the 50 through the uprights and radar gun timing at the combine. Also his timing and anticipation are incredible as Jaws demonstrated during the draft.

I think people get too reliant on media rankings and think those are representative of what QBs need to succeed. Those rankings are often based on useless criteria. I believe that if Beck were 2" taller and 2 years younger he would have been rated as a 1st round franchise QB by everybody. I however, don't find those two characteristics to be much of a detriment to his success. If he had gone to a bigger name school I think he would have been a #1 overall pick. (BYU played against 5 top 25 ranked pass defenses in 2006 but people will persist with their perceptions). I would put Beck's passing ability up against any QB in the league. He wouldn't be the best at every nuance but he'd be among the best. On top of that he has the mental makeup and work ethic to utilize his passing prowess. If it isn't already obvious, I have a great deal of confidence that Beck will be a very good NFL QB.

 

[Tavarious]

Running an offense where your top two receivers are your RB and your TE also makes you look alot more accurate.

What a coincidence! Running an offense where your top two receivers end up in the NFL also makes you look a lot more accurate.

 

[shanegerard]

I'd take Leinart for sure even though i am still very much a fan of what Beck can do for the Fins. Leinart is two years removed from being probably the best NFL ready QB to come into the league since Carson Palmer and he just needs someone to kick him in the ***.

The first thing Whisenhunt should do is ban Nick Lachey from going within a 500 yard radius of Leinart. The Second thing Whisenhunt should do is either trade Kurt Warner or make it very clear that Leinart is his guy because the platooning of QB's idea was ridiculous for everything other than the immediate short term.

Leinart is the Cardinals guy, they were damn lucky he slipped all the way to 10 when he would have gone to SF at number 1 instead of Alex Smith had he declared as a junior and he has everything he needs to succeed in the NFL and time on his side.

As for Beck, we''ll see what Sparano and Lee do for him this year because unlike Leinart, his only failings right now are physical rather than his attitude which is first class and every inch the Franchise QB the way he has handled everything so far with class. If he can improve his mechanics just a shade there is no reason he can't be a decent starter for us, and heck even if his mechanic will always be a little low Phil Rivers' mechanic are straight out of a shot put textbook with no leg leverage on half his throws and he worked out just fine.

 

[FinHopeful]

As of now everyone has seen the pics regarding Leinhardt and this good time in the off season.
This situation got me thinking...
Compare Beck and Leinhardt. Would you rather have a QB like Leinhardt who had all the hoopla and the potential coming out of college. OR would you rather have Beck. Given Beck's situation last year, however based off what I've read from posts on here it seems as if he is working very hard to become the best he can. IMO Beck will be better this year for numerous reasons, but I'm not sold on him leading us to the promise land either. Does anyone feel that Leinhardt is the type of QB who could lead a team to SuperBowls? Is he just not working hard enough? And, if given the opportunity would you trade Beck for Leinhardt straight up right now?
Thanks for any opnions or thoughts.

I am not disappointed with John Beck to this point. He is clearly a hard worker, and I am encouraged whenever I see good work ethics. I have no opinion on your question. Neither of them have enough game time.

 

[eazy e 123]

Leinart All Day Any Day Over Beck Aka Who?!?!

 

[Vaark]

Actually that is not correct on Ryan the Wr was the second receiver.
Beck did not complete over 30 passes to any one wide receiver and Ryan
had 6 receivers that caught over 30 passes. If this was true of Ryan I would say yes but Boston college's offense and BYU's are two differant animals.

Ryan's 07 season: 6.89YPA, 59% completion, 19 INTs and 21 sacks
Beck's 06 season: 9.3 YPA, 69% completion, 8 INTs and 15 sacks

Ryan's Offensive Supporting Cast 07 into NFL through draft and free agency.. TBD, but AT LEAST OT Cherilus projected to be either late 1st or early 2nd round selection

Beck's 06(final season), 0 (zero, zilch, none) Offensive Supporting Cast drafted or signed as FA's into NFL

so again, where do Beck's dinks and dunks come in and as far as throwing to WRs, isn't Welker a short slant wide receiver. What's more surprising aside from Ryan's high ratio of Ints to TDs after the first Wake Forest game is even with his short outs and supposed fast release, his sacks would indicate he was less mobile than Beck in college. Sorry, but in my opinion, it's just not possible to demean Beck's final season BYU completion % if you're intent on using the perspective of Ryan's 07 stats including quality of supporting cast, sacks and ints!

 

[PMZQ]

Leinart has had a lot of offensive weapons and still hasnt shown anything. Plus he is a celeb first and QB second, where Beck is a QB first and foremost.

JOHN BECK IS THE CORRECT ANSWER.

I'll even do you one better, John Beck is a QB first and ONLY. The man breathes and lives football. Hell remember the stories last year that he had his wife helping him to memorize the playbook. Does that sound like something Hollywood Matt would do ?

 

[dlockz]

Ryan's 07 season: 6.89YPA, 59% completion, 19 INTs and 21 sacks
Beck's 06 season: 9.3 YPA, 69% completion, 8 INTs and 15 sacks

Ryan's Offensive Supporting Cast 07 into NFL through draft and free agency.. TBD, but AT LEAST OT Cherilus projected to be either late 1st or early 2nd round selection

Beck's 06(final season), 0 (zero, zilch, none) Offensive Supporting Cast drafted or signed as FA's into NFL

so again, where do Beck's dinks and dunks come in and as far as throwing to WRs, isn't Welker a short slant wide receiver. What's more surprising aside from Ryan's high ratio of Ints to TDs after the first Wake Forest game is even with his short outs and supposed fast release, his sacks would indicate he was less mobile than Beck in college. Sorry, but in my opinion, it's just not possible to demean Beck's final season BYU completion % if you're intent on using the perspective of Ryan's 07 stats including quality of supporting cast, sacks and ints!

BYU's and Texas Tech's offense which are almost the same has a history of making Qb's look better than they are. Look at Max Hall last year who put up great numbers as a sophmore. Becks supporting cast is better than almost every team in his conference while Ryan's supporting cast is in the lower half of his conference. Becks number have alot to do with the offense he is in and it makes his accuracy look better than it is, although its very good. Beck had very small number of receptions from his wide receivers if you actually study the numbers, the same cannot be said O Ryan. Not demeaning Beck but you cannot compare stats ran in a spread offense in the mountain west conference to playing against the ACC. Beck would have not put up those numbers at Boston College with the supporting cast that Ryan had.

 

[dlockz]

I'll even do you one better, John Beck is a QB first and ONLY. The man breathes and lives football. Hell remember the stories last year that he had his wife helping him to memorize the playbook. Does that sound like something Hollywood Matt would do ?

Yea im sure Matt leinhart does not want to work hard lol.THis crap is so overblown. I'm sure Beck is doing other stuff in his free time besides football,
since he is married.

 

[adamprez2003]

BYU's and Texas Tech's offense which are almost the same has a history of making Qb's look better than they are. Look at Max Hall last year who put up great numbers as a sophmore. Becks supporting cast is better than almost every team in his conference while Ryan's supporting cast is in the lower half of his conference. Becks number have alot to do with the offense he is in and it makes his accuracy look better than it is, although its very good. Beck had very small number of receptions from his wide receivers if you actually study the numbers, the same cannot be said O Ryan. Not demeaning Beck but you cannot compare stats ran in a spread offense in the mountain west conference to playing against the ACC. Beck would have not put up those numbers at Boston College with the supporting cast that Ryan had.

Hey Dlocks. What do you think of Paul Smith this year. He kind of reminds me of John Beck

 

[dlockz]

Hey Dlocks. What do you think of Paul Smith this year. He kind of reminds me of John Beck

Somewhat lower rated prospect. I would rank him behind Brennan and Beck as similar prospects who benefited from a Qb friendly offense.

 

[dlockz]

Ryan's 07 season: 6.89YPA, 59% completion, 19 INTs and 21 sacks
Beck's 06 season: 9.3 YPA, 69% completion, 8 INTs and 15 sacks

Ryan's Offensive Supporting Cast 07 into NFL through draft and free agency.. TBD, but AT LEAST OT Cherilus projected to be either late 1st or early 2nd round selection

Beck's 06(final season), 0 (zero, zilch, none) Offensive Supporting Cast drafted or signed as FA's into NFL

so again, where do Beck's dinks and dunks come in and as far as throwing to WRs, isn't Welker a short slant wide receiver. What's more surprising aside from Ryan's high ratio of Ints to TDs after the first Wake Forest game is even with his short outs and supposed fast release, his sacks would indicate he was less mobile than Beck in college. Sorry, but in my opinion, it's just not possible to demean Beck's final season BYU completion % if you're intent on using the perspective of Ryan's 07 stats including quality of supporting cast, sacks and ints!

Ryan's interception ratio is not high, its same as Peyton Mannings was in college. Dan Marino had a very high interception rate.

 

[dlockz]

I don't want this to sound like a knock on Leinart b/c I really liked him coming out but Beck has just as much touch. He also tends to throw from many release angles depending on the type of pass. Check out this video from the preseason.

http://s224.photobucket.com/albums/dd1/bytesandbits/?action=view&current=2007JBExhibitionPerf.flv

The last two passes in particular come out much higher. They're not perfectly over the top but they are far from flat trajectories.

I don't think people realize how good of a passer Beck is. I'm not a BYU fan but I live out west and being too much of a football junkie I watched several of Beck's games. The accuracy this kid has jumped off the screen at me more so than any QBs since Rivers and before that Aikman. To me this is the most important characteristic but he has everything else as a passer as well. His release is very fast (not Marino, but as fast as just about anybody else). He has incredible touch. So much so that people thought he lacked arm strength. This was also incorrect as we've all heard (or seen) his 70 yd pass (actually 65), the pass from his knees at the 50 through the uprights and radar gun timing at the combine. Also his timing and anticipation are incredible as Jaws demonstrated during the draft.

I think people get too reliant on media rankings and think those are representative of what QBs need to succeed. Those rankings are often based on useless criteria. I believe that if Beck were 2" taller and 2 years younger he would have been rated as a 1st round franchise QB by everybody. I however, don't find those two characteristics to be much of a detriment to his success. If he had gone to a bigger name school I think he would have been a #1 overall pick. (BYU played against 5 top 25 ranked pass defenses in 2006 but people will persist with their perceptions). I would put Beck's passing ability up against any QB in the league. He wouldn't be the best at every nuance but he'd be among the best. On top of that he has the mental makeup and work ethic to utilize his passing prowess. If it isn't already obvious, I have a great deal of confidence that Beck will be a very good NFL QB.

If a lot of qb's were two inches taller they would have went higher. There is a reason he did not go to a bigger name school, he was not considered a top level QB prospect. He got no scholarship offers from bigger schools and was not even a big prospect for BYU. As for playing 5 of the top 25 rated pass defenses that quite overrated since with the amount of teams in Division 1 a team can rank very high in pass defense without playing one good passing team. BYU was also 1-7 against ranked teams with Beck at QB. Almost any team in the ACC would have a top flight defense in the MWC. With the talent that FSU produces they would dominate the MWC. I dont doubt you have alot of confidence in Beck but to say he would be among the best in almost all nuances makes little sense to measure from one mediocre rookie season.

 

[rafael]

If a lot of qb's were two inches taller they would have went higher. There is a reason he did not go to a bigger name school, he was not considered a top level QB prospect. He got no scholarship offers from bigger schools and was not even a big prospect for BYU. As for playing 5 of the top 25 rated pass defenses that quite overrated since with the amount of teams in Division 1 a team can rank very high in pass defense without playing one good passing team. BYU was also 1-7 against ranked teams with Beck at QB. Almost any team in the ACC would have a top flight defense in the MWC. With the talent that FSU produces they would dominate the MWC. I dont doubt you have alot of confidence in Beck but to say he would be among the best in almost all nuances makes little sense to measure from one mediocre rookie season.

Being two inches taller would make them rate higher but it wouldn't necessarily make them better QBs. That was the point. And how do you know he didn't have the option to go to bigger name schools but being Mormon chose BYU instead? Also understanding QB evaluation it makes perfect sense to say where a QB would rate with his passing abilities. That's what scouts do every day and I was pretty good at my job particularly when it came to QBs.

 

[dlockz]

Being two inches taller would make them rate higher but it wouldn't necessarily make them better QBs. That was the point. And how do you know he didn't have the option to go to bigger name schools but being Mormon chose BYU instead? Also understanding QB evaluation it makes perfect sense to say where a QB would rate with his passing abilities. That's what scouts do every day and I was pretty good at my job particularly when it came to QBs.

I know because Beck was not a high rated QB coming out of high school. If you follow college recruiting you would know this. Anybody that follows college recruiting knows he was not highly recruited. Matt Berry was actually a much higher rated prospect that he beat out.Beck had damn good high school career but was never viewed as a big time prospect even by BYU. So yes if Beck was younger and taller maybe he would have been a higher rated prospect, still probably lower than Russel and Quinn.