CK's Mocking the Mock
- Thread starter ckparrothead
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ckparrothead
Premium Member
Size may not be AS important but power sure as heck is and Manny first off didn't even show that he has the endurance to play significant amount of time at NT, and second his playing style lends itself MUCH more to the undertackle spot where he could passrush more and not have to worry as much about being an immovable gap-filler.
As for Watson, I honestly didn't think this was a very controversial pick. I mean, think of how valuable Vince Wilfork is to the Patriots defense right now. He's the reason they maintain such great gap control in the middle at the moment...and his pass rush is very underrated. The Patriots are very, very glad they took him I will tell you that right now.
And I don't know why anyone starts counting on Kevin Vickerson. The last thing that should prevent you from taking a very talented player at a certain position in the 1st round is the fact that you drafted another player at a related position (not even the same position) in the 6th round of the previous draft and he spent his entire rookie year on injured reserve. We basically drafted Manny Wright because Kevin Vickerson looked a little more turdish than we thought, then Vickerson showed up with a better attitude, but never flashed the kind of skills that Wright has.
Besides, Wright and Vickerson should be playing the same undertackle position, and especially with Wright's history of endurance problems, it would be beneficial to double those two up at that position as opposed to counting on Wright to be a stalwart NT for the rest of his career (which is not his natural position) and counting on Kevin Vickerson to be a stalwart UT for the rest of his career (6th round pick...yeah, right).
As for Watson, I honestly didn't think this was a very controversial pick. I mean, think of how valuable Vince Wilfork is to the Patriots defense right now. He's the reason they maintain such great gap control in the middle at the moment...and his pass rush is very underrated. The Patriots are very, very glad they took him I will tell you that right now.
And I don't know why anyone starts counting on Kevin Vickerson. The last thing that should prevent you from taking a very talented player at a certain position in the 1st round is the fact that you drafted another player at a related position (not even the same position) in the 6th round of the previous draft and he spent his entire rookie year on injured reserve. We basically drafted Manny Wright because Kevin Vickerson looked a little more turdish than we thought, then Vickerson showed up with a better attitude, but never flashed the kind of skills that Wright has.
Besides, Wright and Vickerson should be playing the same undertackle position, and especially with Wright's history of endurance problems, it would be beneficial to double those two up at that position as opposed to counting on Wright to be a stalwart NT for the rest of his career (which is not his natural position) and counting on Kevin Vickerson to be a stalwart UT for the rest of his career (6th round pick...yeah, right).
Marino2Clayton
I'm too drunk to taste this chicken.
One reason why you can't criticise the Watson pick is that you have to be very deep on the defensive line. Not just for injuries, but to keep a rotation that keeps everyone fresh.
Need an example? Look at the Patriots, who Shanahan called one of the best run defenses he had ever gone up against...
Richard Seymour
Ty Warren
Vince Wilfork
Marquise Hill
Jarvis Green
Dan Kleoko
Santonio Thomas
Mike Wright
Every single year they use a high draft pick on a defensive lineman, every single year.
Need an example? Look at the Patriots, who Shanahan called one of the best run defenses he had ever gone up against...
Richard Seymour
Ty Warren
Vince Wilfork
Marquise Hill
Jarvis Green
Dan Kleoko
Santonio Thomas
Mike Wright
Every single year they use a high draft pick on a defensive lineman, every single year.
Roman529
Moon Runner / The 3 AM Crew
Vince Young # 11??? :confused: C'mon CK, you know the NY Jets won't pass on him if he is available. I think Cutler could go with the #11 pick but not Young. NO WAY IN HELL!!!!!! :wink:
ckparrothead
Premium Member
Jarvis Green so good he gets listed twice 
The Pats aren't done...they've been talking to a lot of undersized DTs like Mahelona and Fifita...looking to replace Klecko.
But they've got a 5 deep DL for a 3 man line...3 first round picks and 2 third rounders if I'm not mistaken about Jarvis Greens and Marquise Hills pedigree. Green might be a 4th now that I think about it.
The Pats aren't done...they've been talking to a lot of undersized DTs like Mahelona and Fifita...looking to replace Klecko.
But they've got a 5 deep DL for a 3 man line...3 first round picks and 2 third rounders if I'm not mistaken about Jarvis Greens and Marquise Hills pedigree. Green might be a 4th now that I think about it.
ckparrothead
Premium Member
Roman529 said:
Mmmm, lets wait til draft day before we declare me an idiot on this one.
Roman529
Moon Runner / The 3 AM Crew
ckparrothead said:
I really respect your knowledge CK...... but hey maybe we could have a pool and have a Mock Pick contest?.....see if anyone can pick the top 10 picks in order and the closest one gets the cash!!!!???? That would make it more fun and interesting. :tongue:
ckparrothead
Premium Member
SR 7 said:
First off, Wright and Vickerson are two of the same kind of inside linemen, where we have two very differentiated positions (nose tackle and under tackle). Both are under tackles.
Second, Kevin Vickerson is a 6th round pick and spent all of 2005 injured. Hardly the kind of player you stake your future on or pencil in as a full time starter.
Third, we have NO nose tackle candidate behind Keith Traylor. Keith is the only player like that we have on the roster. We got away with having Wright play a few games in his place, but he's a pass rushing, penetrating, TALL tackle that has attacking leverage, not anchor leverage.
Last, I thought Mike Patterson and Luis Castillo did very well for their teams this year, Tommie Harris, Vince Wilfork, and Marcus Tubbs have all three been excellent for their playoff teams, and before that there were two years of lower quality first round tackles with Johnathon Sullivan, Jimmy Kennedy, Dewayne Robertson, William Joseph, Ryan Sims, Wendell Bryant, and Damione Lewis leading the charge of busts. But otherwise I thought the percentage has been kind of good.
Really Good First Round DTs in the 5 Drafts 2000 - 2004:
Corey Simon
Richard Seymour
Marcus Stroud
Casey Hampton
Tommie Harris
Vince Wilfork
Solid First Round DTs in the 5 Drafts 2000 - 2004:
Ty Warren
Marcus Tubbs
William Joseph
Dewayne Robertson
John Henderson
Albert Haynesworth
Gerard Warren
Chris Hovan
Non-Starter Quality First Round DTs in the 5 Drafts 2000 - 2004:
Damione Lewis
Ryan Sims
Wendell Bryant
Johnathon Sullivan
Jimmy Kennedy
I'd say that's a pretty good hit/miss, wouldn't you? 32% chance of getting a pro bowl caliber DT, 42% chance of getting a solid defensive tackle, and only a 26% chance of getting a non-starting quality guy.
ckparrothead said:
why not pick up Sam Adams vai FA aat 32yrs old and save that pick for a bigger need ala S? CB? QB? LB?
and wright would penetrate and that causes the line to collapse and not allow teh RB to get out of the backfield. thats the same thing and affective. did you notice tha tthe RB gained no more hten a yard in those couple plays wright was in teh game? thats cuz he would disrupt the off line and cuase it to fall apart and allow the rest to penetrate. when hegest buy the C the G tries to help out leaving taylor/carter open then. i say thats ok wiht me.
unifiedtheory
Thank you #54...
I really like this mock CK....excellent job.
I LOVE the idea of going D-line.
For everyone saying "we have more pressing needs then D-line" Well...
Jason Taylor - 31
Kevin Carter - 32
Keith Traylor - 35
Vonnie Holliday - 30
Jeff Zgonina - 35
Dave Bowens - 29
Notice a trend? They are the major contributors and starters for our D-line and they are all over 30 or about to be over 30.
Yes, we have two decent prospects (Roth and Wright) but I don't want to look up in three years and that is all we have on the D-line. Continueing to plug in 32-35 year old free agents is NOT the way to go. The only reason Saban did that last year was we had NOTHING on the D-line...thanks to the previous regime.
The people trumpeting Vickerson need to re-examine that opinion. The guy has never played a regular season snap, was a 7th round pick and is coming off major knee surgery. Depending on him to be a cornerstone is pure folly.
Nick Saban's defense requires pass rushers and fresh defensive lineman...and waves of them. He WILL NOT make the mistake the previous regime did by letting the defensive line's depth rot on the vine and blow away.
In the five drafts the previous regime was in charge they drafted a TOTAL of THREE defensive lineman. None of them were selected higher then the 6th round. That is five years without adding ANY worthwhile young talent to a position that requires depth...and a lot of it.
A good comparison of how our defensive line has been ignored until Nick Saban took control, look no further then the Patriots.
During the same span of five drafts the Patriots took a total of TEN defensive lineman, including 3 first round selections. Any wonder why they are loaded and young on the defensive line and have three World Championships over the last five years?
People are looking at the possible draft picks that Nick Saban might pick from a NEED angle FAR too much. Nick will draft B.P.A. every time. If our choices are a very talented defensive lineman who has kind of dropped to us OR reaching for a cornerback or offensive lineman just because it is more of a "need", Saban will pick the guy who slipped a little 99 times out of 100 over the "need" guy who is a reach.
I LOVE the idea of going D-line.
For everyone saying "we have more pressing needs then D-line" Well...
Jason Taylor - 31
Kevin Carter - 32
Keith Traylor - 35
Vonnie Holliday - 30
Jeff Zgonina - 35
Dave Bowens - 29
Notice a trend? They are the major contributors and starters for our D-line and they are all over 30 or about to be over 30.
Yes, we have two decent prospects (Roth and Wright) but I don't want to look up in three years and that is all we have on the D-line. Continueing to plug in 32-35 year old free agents is NOT the way to go. The only reason Saban did that last year was we had NOTHING on the D-line...thanks to the previous regime.
The people trumpeting Vickerson need to re-examine that opinion. The guy has never played a regular season snap, was a 7th round pick and is coming off major knee surgery. Depending on him to be a cornerstone is pure folly.
Nick Saban's defense requires pass rushers and fresh defensive lineman...and waves of them. He WILL NOT make the mistake the previous regime did by letting the defensive line's depth rot on the vine and blow away.
In the five drafts the previous regime was in charge they drafted a TOTAL of THREE defensive lineman. None of them were selected higher then the 6th round. That is five years without adding ANY worthwhile young talent to a position that requires depth...and a lot of it.
A good comparison of how our defensive line has been ignored until Nick Saban took control, look no further then the Patriots.
During the same span of five drafts the Patriots took a total of TEN defensive lineman, including 3 first round selections. Any wonder why they are loaded and young on the defensive line and have three World Championships over the last five years?
People are looking at the possible draft picks that Nick Saban might pick from a NEED angle FAR too much. Nick will draft B.P.A. every time. If our choices are a very talented defensive lineman who has kind of dropped to us OR reaching for a cornerback or offensive lineman just because it is more of a "need", Saban will pick the guy who slipped a little 99 times out of 100 over the "need" guy who is a reach.
Alex22 said:
First of all, love Wes, but don't mention him with the Steve Smith's of the world. Secondly, not a good comparison WR and DT's. BUT I think that Wright and Vick will be good players for us.
Dol-Fan Dupree
Manning to Tyree = Best SB Play EVER!!!!
SR 7 said:
I have to disagree here. I think a young good DT is a huge need on this team. Especially at the NG position. As CK said there is no one who excell in that position after Traylor.
If you look at the other position of needs there are young bucks who have a chance to excell. Safty has Bell. Corner has Poole and Daniels(or if you believe some people he coudl be safty), Linebacker has Crowder (and surprisingly Pople who looked really good at times last year). NG has Traylor and no one.
One thing to remember. Traylor was asked to come out of retirement.
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First let me say ...... GREAT JOB CK :drinkers:
Honestly I really look forward to reading your stuff because while I sometimes disagree, it's always well thought out.
I think this is one of the better mock drafts I've seen on the internet (including the pay sites). I don't judge it on accuracy since none of us can really know now, but rather on the sensible insight.
The Gabe Watson pick is something that I for some crazy reason had overlooked during the hundreds of hours I've spent thinking about this draft. Now that I saw it, I just kept thinking wow that makes perfect sense. He fits just right. I can't believe I hadn't thought of it. This guy can flat dominate and I actually think he can be more dominant than Wilfork if he can play consistently (I love Wilfork so that's saying ALOT). I like Watson more than Ngata.
In my opinion, the 1st round pick needs to be someone you can count on contributing. I've said it over and over, succesful franchises get production out of their 1st rounders and unsuccessful franchises don't. You don't need a franchise player at a high value position. It's just important to get someone who will be a very valuable starter somewhere. A Charles Rogers pick (assuming he doesn't develop or gets traded before developing) hurts BADLY.
People often talk about the value of certain positions, safety, CB, QB, LB, DE etc. What's most important is to get a solid player. So I would rather take a Guard who Saban thinks will plug in and be solid over a left tackle that we wonder what he will do with a bust/boom factor.
To that end, I love the Watson pick because he's that type of player that I KNOW will contribute at a high level and make our team better while allowing someone like Wright to really flourish.
Personally some of the guys I would be happy getting are:
Chad Greenway (solid stud who will be productive for years to come)
Winston Justice (versatile and can be moved around allowing other lInemen to play their best positions, will start for a long time)
Michael Huff (again a solid smart playmaker, I would play him at safety)
Cromartie (If he works out and shows he's completely healthy then I just can't see a healthy Cromartie ending up a bust)
Watson (solid big dominating guy, playing in a rotation he can certainly be Wilfork good)
Jean Gilles (pencil in an extra half yard per carry for the RB's)
Honestly I really look forward to reading your stuff because while I sometimes disagree, it's always well thought out.
I think this is one of the better mock drafts I've seen on the internet (including the pay sites). I don't judge it on accuracy since none of us can really know now, but rather on the sensible insight.
The Gabe Watson pick is something that I for some crazy reason had overlooked during the hundreds of hours I've spent thinking about this draft. Now that I saw it, I just kept thinking wow that makes perfect sense. He fits just right. I can't believe I hadn't thought of it. This guy can flat dominate and I actually think he can be more dominant than Wilfork if he can play consistently (I love Wilfork so that's saying ALOT). I like Watson more than Ngata.
In my opinion, the 1st round pick needs to be someone you can count on contributing. I've said it over and over, succesful franchises get production out of their 1st rounders and unsuccessful franchises don't. You don't need a franchise player at a high value position. It's just important to get someone who will be a very valuable starter somewhere. A Charles Rogers pick (assuming he doesn't develop or gets traded before developing) hurts BADLY.
People often talk about the value of certain positions, safety, CB, QB, LB, DE etc. What's most important is to get a solid player. So I would rather take a Guard who Saban thinks will plug in and be solid over a left tackle that we wonder what he will do with a bust/boom factor.
To that end, I love the Watson pick because he's that type of player that I KNOW will contribute at a high level and make our team better while allowing someone like Wright to really flourish.
Personally some of the guys I would be happy getting are:
Chad Greenway (solid stud who will be productive for years to come)
Winston Justice (versatile and can be moved around allowing other lInemen to play their best positions, will start for a long time)
Michael Huff (again a solid smart playmaker, I would play him at safety)
Cromartie (If he works out and shows he's completely healthy then I just can't see a healthy Cromartie ending up a bust)
Watson (solid big dominating guy, playing in a rotation he can certainly be Wilfork good)
Jean Gilles (pencil in an extra half yard per carry for the RB's)
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Oh and people that say Watson doesn't fit a need:
With the 5 yard rules and today's offenses the best pass protection is to bring pressure up front. Saban has said the best way to defend the pass is to put the QB on his butt. Watson would free up Wright to do just that while taking on blockers so the LB's and safety's can harrass the QB.
San Diego and Pittsburgh showed the only way to stop Manning is to pressure him up front.
Also, those saying that our secondary is a bigger need. We have Poole, Mitchell, Bell, Daniels all young developing guys versus just Wright and Vickerson up front.
With the 5 yard rules and today's offenses the best pass protection is to bring pressure up front. Saban has said the best way to defend the pass is to put the QB on his butt. Watson would free up Wright to do just that while taking on blockers so the LB's and safety's can harrass the QB.
San Diego and Pittsburgh showed the only way to stop Manning is to pressure him up front.
Also, those saying that our secondary is a bigger need. We have Poole, Mitchell, Bell, Daniels all young developing guys versus just Wright and Vickerson up front.