Eli just got cheaper, and it's a risk to stay put

[Cranx]

Originally posted by Phinfan31
And dont demand for a link, im not going to spend my time searching for some sports writers speculation on this just so i can prove you wrong, I have better things to do but it makes perfect sense and like Graystreet said EVERYTHING IS SPECULATION right now, so whos to say that those sportswriters know all?? SO what if a sports writer hasnt speculated it, you know how often those guys are wrong? Id say probably 80% of the time their speculations dont even come close to the turn outs.

Dude, you're missing the point (which may be why you're arguing with Gray) as his original assertion was that "word on the street" was that SD was/is looking at Rivers. This would imply that he read/heard this somewhere and was not simply making this up. If he's making something up for purposes of discussion that's fine, but to pass it off as though it's been written about by people in the know is just a lie. Sorry you're having a hard time dealing with this fact.

 

[Phinfan31]

I dont think he said they were after them..Im pretty sure he just said that now that Rivers stands out a little more, the Chargers could perhaps look at getting him because then they could take care of one of their more important needs first.

 

[Phinzone]

Originally posted by Cranx


First off, before you bagging on someone else for their lack of insight and intelligence you should ensure that you’re able to A) spell that which you’re trying to write and B) use your words in proper context; you did neither in several instances here (BTW, the word is “hypothetical†not “hypERtheticalâ€Â...the latter word does not even exist in the English language.) Enough of that however, on to the merits (or severe lack thereof) of your post:

You state that “word on the street†is that the Chargers are thinking of trading down to grab Rivers and, based upon the sound of things, the only street where you’re hearing these “words†is the one in front of your house from the crazed out crack-whore who hangs out in front of your building. Once again, there has been ZERO speculation anywhere in the national media or upon the San Diego sports talk circuit to suggest your assertion otherwise is anything but a figment of your own imagination. While it’s fine to speculate and opine about things such as this you might want to pass these notions off as your own next time and not try to legitimize them by making it sound as though you have heard this from some reputable third party source; you only make yourself out to be a liar in the end. Again, there has been much speculation that San Diego might trade down, but there has been absolutely NO talk of them doing so in hopes of grabbing Rivers.

On to your point about your possessing an NFL value chart, I just have one thing to say: Give me a break. Each team values players totally differently and, therefore, no such standardized chart exists. I’m sure you downloaded something off the internet that might help give you some idea as to how much players are worth but- and I’m quite confident in saying this- it DID NOT come from the NFL itself.

As far as reading comprehension goes, here would be another area one might say you are the pot calling the kettle black. If your reading comprehension skills were as honed as you seem to think they are, you would realize that I never gave Madison a first round value grade. In fact, I didn’t give him a coinciding draft valuation ever, at any point within my original argument. I simply stated that he’s still one of the better players at his position in the NFL and that it would not be a good idea to lose him in some half baked, overpriced trade.

As for the three third round picks, that’s what you proposed reading comprehension boy, not me. I am assuming the first and the third round picks because, as a high tender RFA, that is what he is technically worth. This is not some vague reasoning, this is stone cold, hard fact. The RFA tender which the ‘Fins will be giving to Ogunleye WILL NET THEM FIRST AND THIRD ROUND PICKS from any team that chooses to sign him. As well, YOU proposed a third round pick that could escalate to a first based upon some sort of performance enhancements (which you failed to lay out BTW.) In other words, along with the #20 pick in this year’s draft that you proposed be offered, there are a sum total of potentially THREE first round picks and a third round pick here. I’m not sure why this is so difficult for you to understand but apparently it’s harder for YOU to get than it is for most other posters here. It’s not that hard to figure out but it is, IN FACT, what YOU proposed.

Heck, I’m arguing reading comprehension skills with you when you haven’t even shown the ability to understand the very thing that YOU wrote and proposed; they teach that kind of stuff in Jr. High bro, never mind your local community college where you probably got your AA degree in woodwork or something equally as cerebral. Next time, before you jump headlong into an argument such as this, be sure you’re prepared to defend your position in a manner that will not make you look like a total little bus rider.

P.S. One more thing: you still never made any argument as to how grabbing Manning would be any cheaper. You state that SD would be interested in trading down but why would they all of a sudden, be willing to take less for the #1 overall spot than they would have previously? You never made an argument to support your HYPOTHESIS!
:judge:

you can spell!!...want a cookie?

You may be able to spell, BUT YOU CAN'T COMPREHEND.

READ WHAT I TYPED. "Word on the street is, they might trade down. IF Rivers impressed them, it would be VERY much in their best interest to trade down, and nab him later.

Answer: nowhere.

I continued to type a REALLY bit IF..see it? Following the . ? That . means end of sentence. It is an addition to the previous sentence, NOT a continuation. So let's take a minute and read that.

"Word on the street is, they might trade down". ....now, what does that mean? It means, that San Diego might trade down. ok, now on to step 2.

"IF Rivers impressed them, it would be VERY much in their best interest to trade down, and nab him later." ...well now, that means if they were considering trading down, they cold nab rivers.

Now, let's put them both togehter....."Word on the street is, they might trade down. IF Rivers impressed them, it would be VERY much in their best interest to trade down, and nab him later."

Now, where does it say that they are thinking of trading down for Rivers? no..come on, I want to see it.

Fact is I didn't. I said it could be appealing to them to trade with Miami to grab defensive players, and get Rivers in the process to push Breese for the starting job. It's not that hard to read. But maybe it's easier to shove words in people's mouths?

 

[Cranx]

The entire premise of your argument was based upon the fact that you believed the Chargers would trade down to grab Rivers otherwise, you have absolutely nothing upon which to base your original assertion that Manning's price tag just went down. If you take out the notion that implies the Chargers are interested in Rivers then you have no argument, period.

Yes, your sentence structure does remove the explicit nature of the argument however, the implicit nature therein is still alive and well. So what you are now saying is that the notion of the Chargers grabbing Rivers is pure speculation on your behalf correct?

BTW, you still haven't justified how Manning is worth three #1's, a #3, and an upper eschelon CB. You seem to have deflected that argument entirely as it has become apparent that your reading comprehension skills lack even moreso than mine but hey, at least I can spell.
:splat:

 

[CarolinaFishFan]

im still trying to figure how giving up the rights to Ogun, plus Madison, plus the number 20 pick is considered " Eli's price getting cheaper?"

 

[Lycaon]

Originally posted by Cranx

Show me a single link anywhere where the author of the article is speculating that the Chargers will trade down to grab Rivers and I'll retract; you won't be able to however as one doesn't exist.

Senior Moments

By Vinnie Iyer - SportingNews.com:

It was no coincidence running back Domanick Davis starred last year for the South and became a fourth-round steal for the Texans; the South was coached by Houston's Dom Capers. Schottenheimer's team certainly is in the market for a quarterback.

 

[Pigskin Pimp]

Allthough I agree with Cranx on the entire issue and I believe he made the point pretty clear that the entire Thread was based on this "word on the street". At this point I believe "word on the street" translates to "something I made up". Honestly I don't know if this is enough grounds to justify pages of hostility.... :tongue:

I think we should all take a moment to reflect what happened in this thread, and what the argument has resorted to.......

This thread has officially turned into an all out pissing match.



:monkeyr: :monkeyl:

 

[Cranx]

Originally posted by Lycaon


Senior Moments

By Vinnie Iyer - SportingNews.com:

That's nice but it still doesn't say anything about Rivers whatsoever. It simply states that the Chargers might be in the market for a QB. In fact, the only thing this quote (and this is the only referrence made within the article about the Chargers and a QB) implies is that the Chargers may be looking to steal a QB later in the draft a la Dominick Davis. I'm sure even reading comprehension boy Gray would agree with me on this one.

Originally posted by Pigskin Pimp
Allthough I agree with Cranx on the entire issue and I believe he made the point pretty clear that the entire Thread was based on this "word on the street". At this point I believe "word on the street" translates to "something I made up". Honestly I don't know if this is enough grounds to justify pages of hostility.... :tongue:

I think we should all take a moment to reflect what happened in this thread, and what the argument has resorted to.......

This thread has officially turned into an all out pissing match.



:monkeyr: :monkeyl:

OK, no more pissing... well, maybe just a little. :evil:

 

[Phinzone]

Originally posted by Cranx
The entire premise of your argument was based upon the fact that you believed the Chargers would trade down to grab Rivers otherwise, you have absolutely nothing upon which to base your original assertion that Manning's price tag just went down. If you take out the notion that implies the Chargers are interested in Rivers then you have no argument, period.

Yes, your sentence structure does remove the explicit nature of the argument however, the implicit nature therein is still alive and well. So what you are now saying is that the notion of the Chargers grabbing Rivers is pure speculation on your behalf correct?

BTW, you still haven't justified how Manning is worth three #1's, a #3, and an upper eschelon CB. You seem to have deflected that argument entirely as it has become apparent that your reading comprehension skills lack even moreso than mine but hey, at least I can spell.


:splat:

Incorrect.

The premise of this argument, is that they might trade down for lower picks. THESE picks would be used to fill gaps in their defense.

It is also well known that they are questioning Breese.

At their current pick, they could

1. Get the QB, and foresake their other area's of need

2. Trade down, foresaking the QB, and filling gaps elsewhere (this banks their team on Breese being the man for awhile)

OR 3. They can have their cake and eat it too. They can trade down for our 2 defensive players, AND get a QB to challenge Breese.

This eliminates the threat of anyone moving above us to get a QB. As anyone would admit, there is a lot of discussion about where Rivers will go. Some THINK he'll go late, some THINK he'll go mid-round. No one knows. What we DO know, is that we need a QB to groom badly, and it is very possible that someone will sneak in to nab him. The primse is JUST to take SD out of the equation, but by trading up that high, we take ALL teams out of the equation. We would be able to nab our QB beyond a shadow of a doubt.

Next, I DID answer the "3 1st round picks" question, your just choose to ignore it. In short, you are WRONG. This is not a 3 round pick Value. Go here THAT is an NFL draft Value chart.

According to you, it's not worth it to trade our 20th, an aging DB, and O-gun for Eli. Look back a few weeks, and you'll see someone else thought of this awhile ago. A week ago SD would have been insane to take this, as it is SO one sided in our favor. And yet you sit here and tell me that WE are getting ripped off. Look at the chart.

We are shooting for a pick valued at 3000

We have a value of 850 with our current pick. Let's say by some miracle, we get the 10th pick from O-gun. That is WAY higher than we'll get, but just to prove my point, the 10th pick there, and the tenth pick in the 3rd round brings us to 2370 points.

And your sitting here telling me madison is a first round pick? BS, no one will give a first round pick for him, he's not worth it. Best case scenario let's say he's worth the #1 pick in the 2nd round. That's 680 points......wow, that put us at 3050. Now, try to give someone the first second round pick in this draft for Madison. You won't find any biters, no matter who's up there.

That chart is being VERY generous. It's saying we get the 10th pick in the first AND third for O-gun, as well as Madison's value being at the top of the second round.

It would be fun to sit there and say "he's good, he's worth a first round pick" but in reality, you have to go by this system. It gives you ball park estimates on what you have to give to get those picks. Value wise, this is by FAR the best deal.

 

[Phinzone]

Originally posted by CarolinaFishFan
im still trying to figure how giving up the rights to Ogun, plus Madison, plus the number 20 pick is considered " Eli's price getting cheaper?"

A month ago, this was out of the question. We would still fall short in the draft chart with those guys on the trade. What changed is Rivers had a great showing this past week. One that at the very least makes him an option to comete with breese at their starter. A month ago, there were many questions as to whether Rivers could make it in the NFL, and he answered a lot of those questions at the Senior bowl. Doing this trade now, allows them to get their defensive players, and have the option of bringing someone in to comete with Breese. If they take eli, they still have the holes, if they take defense, Breese is still a ? mark. But with River's strong showing, they can take defense and STILL get a competitive QB.

 

[Cranx]

Originally posted by Graythreat


Incorrect.

The premise of this argument, is that they might trade down for lower picks. THESE picks would be used to fill gaps in their defense.

It is also well known that they are questioning Breese.

At their current pick, they could

1. Get the QB, and foresake their other area's of need

2. Trade down, foresaking the QB, and filling gaps elsewhere (this banks their team on Breese being the man for awhile)

OR 3. They can have their cake and eat it too. They can trade down for our 2 defensive players, AND get a QB to challenge Breese.

This eliminates the threat of anyone moving above us to get a QB. As anyone would admit, there is a lot of discussion about where Rivers will go. Some THINK he'll go late, some THINK he'll go mid-round. No one knows. What we DO know, is that we need a QB to groom badly, and it is very possible that someone will sneak in to nab him. The primse is JUST to take SD out of the equation, but by trading up that high, we take ALL teams out of the equation. We would be able to nab our QB beyond a shadow of a doubt.

Next, I DID answer the "3 1st round picks" question, your just choose to ignore it. In short, you are WRONG. This is not a 3 round pick Value. Go here THAT is an NFL draft Value chart.

According to you, it's not worth it to trade our 20th, an aging DB, and O-gun for Eli. Look back a few weeks, and you'll see someone else thought of this awhile ago. A week ago SD would have been insane to take this, as it is SO one sided in our favor. And yet you sit here and tell me that WE are getting ripped off. Look at the chart.

We are shooting for a pick valued at 3000

We have a value of 850 with our current pick. Let's say by some miracle, we get the 10th pick from O-gun. That is WAY higher than we'll get, but just to prove my point, the 10th pick there, and the tenth pick in the 3rd round brings us to 2370 points.

And your sitting here telling me madison is a first round pick? BS, no one will give a first round pick for him, he's not worth it. Best case scenario let's say he's worth the #1 pick in the 2nd round. That's 680 points......wow, that put us at 3050. Now, try to give someone the first second round pick in this draft for Madison. You won't find any biters, no matter who's up there.

That chart is being VERY generous. It's saying we get the 10th pick in the first AND third for O-gun, as well as Madison's value being at the top of the second round.

It would be fun to sit there and say "he's good, he's worth a first round pick" but in reality, you have to go by this system. It gives you ball park estimates on what you have to give to get those picks. Value wise, this is by FAR the best deal.

Dude, I've spent way too much time arguing this thing. So I'm done wasting my time and energy here. I will reiterate however that not once, and in no way, shape, or form have I ever stated or even implied that Madison is now or will be worth a first round pick so I'm not sure where you're getting that from.

With that, I'm done.