Everyone is fawning over Deuce McAllister after our game with him...(merged)

ckparrothead

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Everyone is fawning over Deuce McAllister after our game with him...

A little perspective please Meistro.

Aside from the obvious, cliche, and trite words "its only preseason" there are some very serious reasons to have a little perspective on Deuce McAllister.

Don Banks of CNN/SI recently wrote an article in his Inside the NFL column revolving largely around Deuce McAllister and his game against the Dolphins...showing the world that the Saints maybe weren't so stupid for getting rid of Williams.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/inside_game/don_banks/news/2002/08/16/banks_deuce/

PLEASE man, just a tad bit of perspective. Don't know what I'm talking about? OK then you asked for it.

#1. The Dolphins rush defense ranked #18 in the league last year, which is slightyly less than mediocre (don't we know it).

#2. Aside from that, both Tim Bowens and Larry Chester, the two starting DTs in the defense, missed the game and gave way to guys like Jermaine Haley, Ernest Grant, Henry Taylor, and Dario Romero WHILE DEUCE WAS STILL ON THE FIELD DOING HIS RUNNING AND CATCHING.

#3. Zach Thomas missed the game. His primary backup, Tommy Hendricks missed the game. TOMMY HENDRICKS' PRIMARY BACKUP, Scott Galyon, ALSO MISSED THE GAME. Who did that leave us with? Little ole UNDRAFTED ROOKIE FREE AGENT Justin Seaverns starting the game at MLB and playing the entire first half...with the responsibility of bottling up Deuce on run plays, covering Deuce over the middle on pass plays, etc. Deuce did a lot of his catching and running right at Seaverns, who often missed his coverage assignments (which is completely understandable).

#4. Derrick Rodgers came out of the game fairly early in favor of another undrafted free agent, Joshua Symonette.

Conclusions...

#1. Don Banks points out in the article that one of the Saints newfound favorite plays, is lining Deuce up in the slot and hoping they keep a base defense so that they try and get a LBer or a Safety covering Deuce. This is preseason and we had no game plan, so we kept the base defense in EVERY TIME THAT HAPPENED, of course. And when that happened, who was responsible for covering him most of the time? Undrafted free agents Joshua Symonette and Justin Seaverns (who was chewed out by our LBers coach once or twice particularly for missed assignments on Deuce McAllister catches). The Saints are creaming themselves, their RBs coach now says that he believes there isn't a LBer or Safety in the league that can cover Deuce in the slot....GET REAL DUDE. Two undrafted rookies make some mistakes, and Deuce ends up with 3 catches for 28 yards, one of which was a 17 yard catch that was specifically Justin Seaverns fault, as Brock Marion handed McAllister off to Seaverns in coverage, but Seaverns was nowhere to be found (this was the play for which Seaverns got chewed out by the LBers coach). Take away that play as a blown coverage by an undrafted rookie who will struggle to make the team even as a special teams standout, and you have 2 catches for 11 yards. WHOOO BOY! Ain't DAT somethin to get excited about!

#2. Deuce rushed for 42 yards on 11 carries and no touchdowns. Against the #18 ranked rush defense in the league, minus Zach Thomas, minus Tim Bowens, minus Zach's primary backup Tommy Hendricks, minus the 3rd string MLB Scott Galyon, and for a lot of the time, minus Derrick Rodgers. Wow. 3.8 yards per carry against this JUGGERNAUT of a run defense. I know I'M impressed....

Excuse me, but didn't Ricky Williams average 4.0 yards per carry in both 2000 and 2001? Wasn't one of the reasons they got rid of Williams and went with this injury-prone speedster, because he can average more yards per carry and be a bigger homerun threat than Ricky Williams? And for all this, with the Saints starting OL against a pale version of the #18 ranked rush defense in the NFL last year, he averaged LESS THAN Ricky Williams' 4.0 average for 2000 and 2001....and they are excited?

You have to realize that THIS is why everyone spouts out those trite, cliche, sayings about how this is "just preseason" and it "means nothing" etc. I'm not gonna say that preseason means nothing and I'm not even gonna say its impossible to extrapolate from preseason success and project onto the real season. But when looking at the preseason you are faced with a myriad of possibilities that you aren't faced with during the regular season or at least won't be faced with often. LIKE the fact that undrafted rookies Justin Seaverns and Joshua Symonette were covering Deuce McAllister's runs and catches. LIKE the fact that Deuce did his running without either of our starting DTs in the game. You have to pay attention to those things, even down to the individual play, like Justin Seaverns' blown assignment on Deuce's 17 yard catch...

So, a little perspective here PLEASE.
 

Coach_Largent

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Good post ...

... the fact remains most Saints fans are SEC homers. Pure and simple, and when it comes down to it, they would rather root for "their own".

proof ??


from Ed about RW and Saints RB's ...

Two {Saints} RB's come to mind that I believe are better.
Dalton Hilliard and Reuben Mayes.

as for no LB's or FS/SS's that can cover him ... LOL. Whatever.

Funny that the same RB coach didn't make any comments about Deuce's (in)ability to pick up the blitz, nor have they gotten him any reps doing so in game-action (they're busy sending him on routes against Seaverns and the likes), so I'd guess that when Tampa and New Orleans play in week one (when teams actually scheme for other teams) that we'll see, if, by the same token, Dulymus can block say Lynch, or Webster in blitz situations ...

Just because Deuce may or may not cause a coverage issue doesn't mean teams have to try so hard to cover him, or that they'll bring in nickel packages to "cover" him. They'll go to Zone blitzes, let him have a dink and dunk, and force him to pick up the 6th rusher, where he becomes the mismatched liability.(or force Brooks to throw to him on the hot read, when he vacates the backfield) By the same token that teams will have to watch dulymus in the open field, the Saints will have to be aware that teams will also know that he'll vacate the backfield, and will come HARD on that side of the rush.

I'd rather have a back that creates m2m coverage, with his brutal running style (putting 7-8 men in the box) and that can and in fact loves to block, so that my team can throw the ball vertically against m2m coverages, and so that my 2nd WR will never face doubles, and that when they double the 1 WR, they do it at the risk of leaving the TE in man with the LB, and RW to be free of the defense at LB depth.

Of course that's just me ...
 

dirtywhiteboy

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he'll be out with some sort of injury before the 5th game of the season...preseason excluded.
i'm not wishing it on him, but the saints better keep allen fresh!
this is just a gut feeling from me (knowing duece's past helps), kind of like the mcmichael gut feeling i have.
 

Baz

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You tell 'em ckparrothead. Is it just me or are the teams we face in preseason more intent on winning the game than we are? I mean, its obvious Gruden wanted that win. Then against the Saints, Deuce stayed in when we started subbing in the srubs! Seriously, get a life and take preseason for what it is, a hyped up practice......
 

J-E-T-S

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I just think the hypocrisy of ALL football fans is funny in the preseason. Had Ricky had a good game, and McAllister been shut down, the posts at this place would have been, "See, the Saints are idiots for getting rid of Ricky and keeping Deuce". Since it is the other way, you don't look at it that way. I'm not saying it's just you guys. If the Jets come out badly in one of the remaining 2 games, fans will make excuses for the negatives, but talk about how true to lthe season the positives from the 1st 2 games were.
 

Baz

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So true J-E-T-S. The fact remains though, the media takes these games to seriously. They are a practice, nothing more, nothing less. These media guys need to realize that......
 

grooves12

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Originally posted by BMarion31
So true J-E-T-S. The fact remains though, the media takes these games to seriously. They are a practice, nothing more, nothing less. These media guys need to realize that......

The problem isn't that the media takes pre-season games seriously (It's their job) its the fact that fans take the media seriously.
 

Brad01

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Actually the thing that is funny is that some of you Dolphin fans think that you're the only team that doesn't prepare for preseason games. If you didn't notice, the Saints did not run any cutbacks, slants, or sweeps which is Deuce McAllister's strong point as far as running the ball goes. All he did was run the ball up the middle.

And it's not like the Dolphins were the only team without players on the field. DE Darren Howard was not in there for the Saints, neither was LG Wally Williams or WR Donte' Stallworth. CB Dale Carter wasn't in there either if you want to count that even though he's serving a suspension. All of those guys are starters. And then plenty of other players didn't see much action: Horn and Fred Thomas are two of them.

It wasn't the fact that Deuce McAllister had 28 yards on 3 receptions including the 17 yarder... it was his route running and hands that caught the attention of most of these sports writers. And Saints coaches don't think a LB or Safety can cover Deuce just because he did well in preseason, it's because of his size (6'01'') speed (4.41) and just his natural WR ability.

Lastly, it's funny how people say Deuce is injury prone. Count it, he missed ONE college game due to injury. And he's never had surgeries because of those injuries. Ricky Williams has missed 11 NFL games including the playoffs because of injuries in just two seasons. Last season he bulked up and stayed injury free for the most part (still had a few nagging ones) but oh that's right, he dropped from 250 pounds to like 220 now didn't he? Let's see how he does at that weight... again... because he has not stayed healthy at 220
 

ckparrothead

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And its funny how in order to defend your boy, you go completely off topic and start talking about how the Saints were missing a bunch of people on DEFENSE.

Eh hem, excuse me? Exactly how does Darren Howard's being out affect Deuce McAllister's production? Riiiggght...

Bottom line is still this...his 17 yard catch was made because Justin Seaverns, an undrafted rookie free agent who might not even make the team, blew his coverage assignment. One of his other catches was made on I believe either Seaverns or Symonette.

3.8 ypc against a pale version of an 18th ranked run defense in the league. OH BUT I'M SURE THAT IF WALLY WILLIAMS WAS THERE THAT FIGURE WOULD JUMP UP TO 5.8 ypc EASILY!!!!

HAHAHAHAHAHAH. Riiiiiggghhtt.

Oh and I'm almost positive Deuce missed more than 1 game of college ball. You'd better go back and check your sources again.
 

ckparrothead

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By the way, I just love how fans can spin their own players' biggest weaknesses into STRENGTHS, so easily, without batting an eyelash or cracking a smile.

I remember having a Jet fan try and tell me that Santana Moss is 5'10" almost 5'11" and 185 lbs. And yet he could say this without cracking a smile even though BY FAR the biggest knock on Santana has always been his height and size, being the only reasons he wasn't a top 10 or even a top 5 pick in the draft. What the Jets fan failed to realize is that IF INDEED Santana was "almost 5'11" then there would be no height issues, as a good percentage of the WRs in this league, even the good ones, are 5'10" (including Joey Galloway) and 5'11". So if it were true, there'd be no height knock on Santana.

Now here we have a Saints homer coming in and saying that Deuce McAllister only missed 1 game of college ball, and his injury issues were always minor and never required surgery of any sort. Such a RB coming out of college, would have the "health" portion of his game considered a STRENGTH. And yet....since before the bugger was drafted, health has been a serious question mark about him.

It would be like if we all the sudden said that Zach Thomas was really 6'1" and 260 lbs. Uhhh...well, he looks like a SMALL 6'1" but he's every inch and pound of that I swear! Ok, so why has height and weight always been a huge issue with Zach Thomas ever since he got into the league? Umm....because...uhh....I don't know where they get this stuff its all just media hype, yeah media hype thats it!
 

VanDolPhan

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And Brad01 comes all the way from another board to register here and point out what a homer he is.

Actually the thing that is funny is that some of you Dolphin fans think that you're the only team that doesn't prepare for preseason games. If you didn't notice, the Saints did not run any cutbacks, slants, or sweeps which is Deuce McAllister's strong point as far as running the ball goes. All he did was run the ball up the middle.

Please if you don't prepare then what was with all the Saint's blitzing schemes then? Not exactly a 'vanilla defense'.

And it's not like the Dolphins were the only team without players on the field. DE Darren Howard was not in there for the Saints, neither was LG Wally Williams or WR Donte' Stallworth. CB Dale Carter wasn't in there either if you want to count that even though he's serving a suspension. All of those guys are starters. And then plenty of other players didn't see much action: Horn and Fred Thomas are two of them.

Get with the subject man. That's a pretty bad counterargument in this subject when we are talking about Deuce's running. The only valid guy you mentioned there was Darren Howard. We are talking about the sports writer going all googly eyes over Deuce even though 4 of 5 guys including ALL 3 that play the middle were out. How can anyone make those statements when it all came against 2nd team players?

It wasn't the fact that Deuce McAllister had 28 yards on 3 receptions including the 17 yarder... it was his route running and hands that caught the attention of most of these sports writers. And Saints coaches don't think a LB or Safety can cover Deuce just because he did well in preseason, it's because of his size (6'01'') speed (4.41) and just his natural WR ability.

Read the fricking article before you come in here spouting off. The whole article was in relation to Thursday's game.

Lastly, it's funny how people say Deuce is injury prone. Count it, he missed ONE college game due to injury. And he's never had surgeries because of those injuries.

Gee that's funny. McAllister slipped in the 2001 draft because he had shoulder, hamstring, back and ankle injuries at Ole Miss.. He missed 9 quarters of football (Came off the bench in an OT game against UNLV) and played through the various injuries. That won't cut it in the NFL.

He also missed a game and was limited in another 4 with a shoulder injury the year before that.

[Edit: OMG CK I can't believe you posted twice while I was posting this lol.]
 

dolphan39

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the strangest thing to me in this whole saga is how little Deuce did last year. Deuce had 15 catches and 16 rushes. Travis Minor - who was never in the running for the #1 back for a horrible rushing 2001 Fins - was far more productive w/59 rushes and 29 catches. Why not throw Deuce out there last year when they need a big play or to exploit a weakness on the other team's D. I have no good answer.
 

Brad01

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Originally posted by ckparrothead
And its funny how in order to defend your boy, you go completely off topic and start talking about how the Saints were missing a bunch of people on DEFENSE.

Eh hem, excuse me? Exactly how does Darren Howard's being out affect Deuce McAllister's production? Riiiggght...

Um, Talking about a DE is not off topic. The whole article was about Deuce McAllister vs Ricky Williams. And what does a DE do? That's right, they are part of stopping the run. And Darren Howard's absense made it easier for Ricky Williams to run the ball because Howard is very good against the run. But oh yeah I forgot, Ricky still only had 17 total rushing yards on 8 carries.


And no, I don't have to check my sources again on how many games Deuce missed due to injury. Those words came straight from his mouth.

So, let me get this straight, You are saying that it was pathetic in how Deuce only averaged 3.8 yards per carry up the middle against the 18th ranked rushing defense of last year, yet you say nothing about Ricky Williams averaging 2.1 yards per carry against the 16th ranked rushing defense of last year.

Gimme a break. Preseason means nothing in terms of stats or wins/losses. The only thing you can really see is how talented some players are because no schemes are used and both offenses and defenses use just base formations. And these writers finally got to see Deuce in action. Before this, they just had him as a question mark. Now that's starting to fade out.

I just find it funny how some people want to act like Ricky Williams is a future hall of famer. The guy hasn't even made the probowl yet in 3 years as a starter.

A lot of people like to say that Ricky wasn't productive in New Orleans because of lack of talent on offense. That may be so, but the Saints had a whole lot more talent on offense than the Dolphins have. A much better OLine, even though it sucked last season. A 2 time probowl receiver, another 1000 yard receiver, and a probowl alternate at QB.

The Saints had the #4 ranked offense last season before the final two games and finished 10th. Yet you can go back and look at the offense and say it lacked talent, especially at the TE position and in terms of predictability (another feature Ricky Williams brings to the table). But even then, Miami's offense this year still isn't even on the same level as the Saints were last year.

Give it a rest. Deuce McAllister is more talented than Ricky Williams will ever be. The only thing Ricky has on him is power.
 

dolphan39

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Originally posted by Brad01

Give it a rest. Deuce McAllister is more talented than Ricky Williams will ever be. The only thing Ricky has on him is power.
who cares about talent :rolleyes: I want productivity and Ricky was the the #2 guy in the NFL ( or #3 ? )guy in total yards from scrimmage in 2001 - that is all that matters
 

Brad01

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Originally posted by VanDolPhan
And Brad01 comes all the way from another board to register here and point out what a homer he is.



Please if you don't prepare then what was with all the Saint's blitzing schemes then? Not exactly a 'vanilla defense'.



Get with the subject man. That's a pretty bad counterargument in this subject when we are talking about Deuce's running. The only valid guy you mentioned there was Darren Howard. We are talking about the sports writer going all googly eyes over Deuce even though 4 of 5 guys including ALL 3 that play the middle were out. How can anyone make those statements when it all came against 2nd team players?



Read the fricking article before you come in here spouting off. The whole article was in relation to Thursday's game.



Gee that's funny. McAllister slipped in the 2001 draft because he had shoulder, hamstring, back and ankle injuries at Ole Miss.. He missed 9 quarters of football (Came off the bench in an OT game against UNLV) and played through the various injuries. That won't cut it in the NFL.

He also missed a game and was limited in another 4 with a shoulder injury the year before that.

[Edit: OMG CK I can't believe you posted twice while I was posting this lol.]


Blitzing is part of the game. Not all blitzes are schemes. The only way to assess talent as far as pass rushing goes with cornerbacks and linebackers in the preseason is to blitz. Every team blitzes at some point in preseason. You need to know who fits where. It's common sense.

Ok... so a LG has nothing to do with Deuce McAllister running the ball. And a receiver also has nothing to do with the running game. Have you ever heard of how the passing game can open up the running game? If you don't have to worry about the receivers, you're going to stick more men in the box to stop the run.

No, the Ricky vs Deuce was in relation to Thursday's game because their teams played each other, not just how Deuce did in that game alone.

Not necessarily true. Deuce was still the 2nd runningback taken in the draft. It's all based on need. You don't take someone if you need some other position first. Just like how Donte' was the top receiver but taken 13th this year unlike last year where two were taken in the top 10. It was just that those teams didn't have specific need for receiver first.

All players, especially runningbacks, go through injuries at some point in their career. And Deuce's I wouldn't consider anything major. While someone like Terrell Davis would be major. Deuce has never had any surgeries to repair his injuries.
 
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