Everyone is fawning over Deuce McAllister after our game with him...(merged) | Page 2 | FinHeaven - Miami Dolphins Forums

Everyone is fawning over Deuce McAllister after our game with him...(merged)

Give it a rest. Deuce McAllister is more talented than Ricky Williams will ever be. The only thing Ricky has on him is power.

Blocking, intelligence, and knowledge of the game, all come to mind pretty quickly.

Isn't this a quote by you ??
Brad01
RB:
1) Marshall Faulk - 14 games last two years and still had the most FFPs.
2) Corey Dillon - His numbers will sky rocket if his QB plays good with those WRs they got.
3) Edgerrin James - As long as that ACL doesn't bother him, he will likely lead the league in rushing yards again.
4) Shaun Alexander - Passing attack should improve, but either way, he will still score a lot of points like last season.
5) Ricky Williams - He will get the ball 30 times a game if he stays healthy, he has to put up some points with that many carries.
6) Priest Holmes - If he stays healthy like last year, he'll have another huge year in the Chiefs' offense.
7) Anthony Thomas - Will be the starter for the whole year this season, and if their passing attack improves the slightest bit, he will post monster numbers.
8) Ahman Green - Fumble problem since he holds the ball with his left hand, but other than that, he's solid.
9) Deuce McAllister - Should post more numbers than most of those I ranked ahead of him if he stays healthy.
10) Curtis Martin - Always consistant.
*Note - A lot of the other RBs are either very injury prone (Eddie George, Fred Taylor, Antoine Smith, etc) or won't get the full RB duty (Tampa, 49ers, Panthers, Lions, Falcons, etc)

Interesting ...

BTW -- Brad I'm a Saintsfan too, and I ask you, go back and watch a few game tapes, and see how many of Horn and WJ's, TD's were made possible by a block/blitz pick-up by Williams.

BTW2 --- Guys that finish 5 OVERALL in the ENTIRE NFL (while not getting the ball in the last four games) ... yeah, they don't suck.

BTW3 -- Iknow it is the mantra of the Deuce fans to say, he only missed ____ gaems/qtrs. due to injury in college

so answer me again, how many games and or practices did Ricky miss in his college career ???

The answer is of course ZERO, and he had a few more touches than Dulymus.
 
Originally posted by dolphan39
who cares about talent :rolleyes: I want productivity and Ricky was the the #2 guy in the NFL ( or #3 ? )guy in total yards from scrimmage in 2001 - that is all that matters

You know, there was this one game that Marshall Faulk played back in his last season with the Colts. He had well over 170 yards from scrimmage. Yet on their final drive to win the game, the ball was thrown to him and he missed it and it bounced off his helmet and the defender intercepted the ball. They lost the game because of that and the coach chewed him out on it. That was when Marshall realized that it didn't matter how many yards you put up to win games.

Ricky Williams, unfortunately, is not nearly as talented as Marshall. But there are many games when he will put up plenty of yards but still fumble the ball and probably become the reason your team loses the game.

The 49ers game for example last season. Ricky had at least 170 yards from scrimmage. The Saints lost 28-27. But the Saints were up 24-21 in the 4th quarter and had the ball. Ricky fumbled the ball at their own 30 and the 49ers scored a TD because of it. Ok, so he makes one mistake.. that isn't so bad right? Well, with around 5 or 6 minutes remaining in the game, it was third down and the Saints were in the 49ers' redzone. The ball was thrown to a wide open Ricky Williams in the endzone and he dropped the ball. The Saints settled for a field goal because of it instead of taking the lead 31-28. The 49ers then converted a few first downs and the Saints could not get the ball back in time.


Ricky Williams was hated down here in New Orleans just as much as he was loved because of the way he played. Ricky will never be able to hold onto the ball like Barry Sanders and Marshall Faulk could because of the size of his hands and arms and his style of running.
 
3 major points on Ricky

  1. he's a new man since he controlled his anxiety disorder
  2. he now has Norv Turner
  3. he betta not put the ball on the ground like last year or else there will be a lot of people jumping off the Ricky bandwagon
    [/list=1]
 
Originally posted by Coach_Largent


Blocking, intelligence, and knowledge of the game, all come to mind pretty quickly.

Isn't this a quote by you ??


Interesting ...

go back and watch a few game tapes, and see how many of Horn and WJ's, TD's were made possible by a block/blitz pick-up by Williams.

Guys that finish 5 OVERALL in the ENTIRE NFL (while not getting the ball in the last four games) ... yeah, they don't suck.

so answer me again, how many games and or practices did Ricky miss in his college career ???

The answer is of course ZERO, and he had a few more touches than Dulymus.

That list was in terms of fantasy value. And notice how I said Deuce should put up more points than those I had ranked ahead of him. But since he's "unproven" he can't be ranked too high.

Ricky I had ranked that high only because of the Norv Turner factor, and because fumbles and dropped passes don't mean a thing in fantasy football. I still don't consider him a top 5 back, probably not even top 10.

Ricky made some blocks but it's not like Deuce can't block. Deuce won't be in the backfield much on passing plays so blocking defensive linemen and linebackers won't make much of a difference for him. But he can still block and he'll make some good blocks to make better RACs for the receivers.

No one said Ricky sucked, but when you get the ball nearly 400 times you better put up a lot of yardage. Personally I would rather someone touch the ball 300 times and pick up just as many. Ricky is a 4.0 back.

Ricky may not have missed any games in college but he still injured his ankles quite often.
 
Originally posted by Brad01

The 49ers game for example last season. Ricky had at least 170 yards from scrimmage. The Saints lost 28-27.

Just a little side note. How many Saints defenders touched and or missed tackles on Kevan Barlow on the screen pass that he took for a TD ?? Just out of curiosity, how many 3rd and 8 +'s did SF convert that day ?? Oh, adn while we're at it, how many of the 170 yards that RW had that day were after contact ?? Over 65 % ??

Oh, I know RW lost that game !!!

San Fran ran for 6.3 YPC that day. Oh, I know RW lost the game, right ??

How many tackles did Darrin Smith alone miss ??? Wasn't it 6 ?? Didn't Terrell Owens just abuse Fred Thomas that day, and make 3 cathces on 3rd and long in the 4th qtr. alone ???

Oh, I know it was RW fault.

Without the tackle breaking, bull running effort of RW the Saints weren't even in that game. Should he have caught that ball ?? Sure. Was it the reason the Saints lost ?? No. They were beaten by the better team, with the better coaching staff.

KEY PLAYS ???
3rd Quarter
New Orleans - Field Goal
JOHN CARNEY 35 YD, 5:04
Drive: 7 plays, 35 yards in 2:27
Key plays: McGarity 32-yard punt return to New Orleans 48;Williams 14-yard run to San Francisco 38ooks 17- yard pass to Jackson to San Francisco 21
San Francisco 21-17 .


New Orleans - Touchdown
JOE HORN 6 YD PASS FROM AARON BROOKS (JOHN CARNEY KICK), 11:53
Drive: 10 plays, 89 yards in 4:59
Key plays:Williams 13-yard run to New Orleans 24; Brooks 34-yard pass to R Williams to San Francisco 25ooks 17-yard pass to McAllister to San Francisco 7
New Orleans 24-21 .

New Orleans - Field Goal
JOHN CARNEY 36 YD, 7:04
Drive: 8 plays, 69 yards in 3:10
Key plays:Williams 16-yard run to New Orleans 29ooks 63-yard pass to Jackson on 3rd-and-12 to San Francisco 10
San Francisco 28-27 .

Yeah. He sure did lose that one.
 
Originally posted by Brad01
Ricky may not have missed any games in college but he still injured his ankles quite often.

So why does Ricky take the heat from you but Deuce doesn't even though he had multiple injuries? Quite frankly the sports writers/team or anyone else for that matter can say whose going to be better or who gets the better end of the deal till the season is played. For all you know Deuce could be your J.J Johnson (and were not talking about the coach). At this point the only proven commodity is Ricky.
 
Originally posted by Coach_Largent


Just a little side note. How many Saints defenders touched and or missed tackles on Kevan Barlow on the screen pass that he took for a TD ?? Just out of curiosity, how many 3rd and 8 +'s did SF convert that day ?? Oh, adn while we're at it, how many of the 170 yards that RW had that day were after contact ?? Over 65 % ??

Oh, I know RW lost that game !!!

San Fran ran for 6.3 YPC that day. Oh, I know RW lost the game, right ??

How many tackles did Darrin Smith alone miss ??? Wasn't it 6 ?? Didn't Terrell Owens just abuse Fred Thomas that day, and make 3 cathces on 3rd and long in the 4th qtr. alone ???

Oh, I know it was RW fault.

Without the tackle breaking, bull running effort of RW the Saints weren't even in that game. Should he have caught that ball ?? Sure. Was it the reason the Saints lost ?? No. They were beaten by the better team, with the better coaching staff.

KEY PLAYS ???


Yeah. He sure did lose that one.

The Saints were all over the field on offense, especially in the passing game. THAT is why Ricky was able to run up the middle for so many yards. The Saints piled up just under 500 yards of total offense. And the majority of that was not to Ricky's credit. It is a team effort and the Saints' defense should have played better, but Ricky still made two critical mistakes. If he only made one of those, I have no doubt in my mind that the Saints would have won that game.

And no, Fred Thomas was not abused by Terrell Owens. Fred was on JJ Stokes most of the game because they had Kevin Mathis and Jay Bellamy covering Owens.


Originally posted by VanDolPhan
So why does Ricky take the heat from you but Deuce doesn't even though he had multiple injuries.

Huh? What I wrote was in reply to someone who was trying to say that Ricky Williams never got injured in college.
 
Originally posted by Brad01

And no, Fred Thomas was not abused by Terrell Owens. Fred was on JJ Stokes most of the game because they had Kevin Mathis and Jay Bellamy covering Owens.

FWIW -- read my post -- I watched all 16 games last year, and have them all on tape.



I urge you to read this thread on the WDZ ... it was my post the day of the game ... Read all the comments by all the fans, many of whom, liek you know, are RW doubters/haters ...

http://whodatzone.com/bb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=5692&highlight=Careful

Funny that I predicted the RW trade that day, isn't it ???
 
You see, I guess you just don't understand what I wrote. Ricky Williams is not as reliable as a lot of people like to think. The only thing he can catch is screen passes. And then he has a huge fumble problem. He has fumbled the ball 20 times in 38 games. That is more than 1 every other game. That was my whole point of bringing up that game.

The thing about Marshall Faulk is basically just backing it up. Ricky Williams has to understand that he can get all the yards in the world in a game, but he has to be a team player in order for his team to win and he has to limit his mistakes. He also has to keep focus every play. When he understands that, then maybe he'll jump into the elite class of runningbacks and not just being a workhorse RB.
 
Wow Coach Largent....a Saints fan comes out of the woodwork to police his own on a Dolphins message board. I'm impressed...especially with that "Oh I'm sure it was RW's fault" message. Damn ya couldn't have really abused him more than that.

But even so notice Brad has conveniently gotten off-topic of the reason I STARTED this thread, and that was that everyone is all the sudden grabbing onto Deuce's jockstrap after this Saint-Dolphins game because of what he did in the game. I merely pointed out that stats are pretty deceiving in this game where his catches are concerned, for reasons I've advertised plenty.

And when it comes to his running, well first off he only averaged 3.8 yards per carry which to my knowledge is below Ricky Williams' 4.0 yards per carry from 2000 and 2001. I'm not tryin to say that Williams is BETTER than Deuce or anything with this stat. What I'm trying to point out rather, is the fault in using that performance to say that Deuce McAllister is everything they hoped he was...and using that stat to justify getting rid of Ricky in favor of Deuce. Because the #1 reason Haslett prefers Deuce to Ricky supposedly, is because Deuce will average more yards per carry...he won't need to touch the ball 30 times a game like Ricky to be effective. Even Haslett admits that Deuce probably can't stay injury-free when he runs the ball 25-30 times a game. So he says that Deuce will see less carries than Ricky, but Deuce will do more in those carries than Ricky did...in other words, he should have a HIGHER YPC than Ricky Williams did. Well, how is it that a bunch of Saints fans and sports writers can use a 3.8 ypc against the 18th ranked rushing defense MINUS the THREE MOST IMPORTANT PIECES OF THE FRONT 7, to say that Haslett was right? Didn't Haslett say that Deuce should be averaging MORE yards per carry than Ricky? He didn't...against a rush defense that should have been pretty bad too.

So what about this performance is starting to make the Saints look "smart" for ditching Ricky in favor of Deuce? Thats what I'M saying. I'm not tryin to talk about Ricky's production in the game whatsoever...I'm not tryin to say he looked better or worst than Deuce. I'm isolating Deuce's performance, much like Don Banks of CNN/SI did recently, and trying to ask the question why is it that a sports writer like Don Banks can look at Deuce's performance isolated, and all the sudden be on Deuce's jockstrap? How did Deuce PROVE himself in this game? In my opinion he didn't, and the only reason Don Banks writes that article is because Deuce's stats are deceiving in that game and he doesn't care to take an up close look at the facts, and knows that 95% of his readers don't care to take an up close look at the facts surrounding Deuce's performance.

But all the same....my all time favorite line has to be how "blitzing" is not necessarily part of "schemes" LMFAO! Riiiigggght. I believe "blitzes" are what define "schemes" Or rather, than can be no blitz, without a blitz scheme...a blitz is a scheme, just like a zone mixed coverage is a scheme. I still can't believe the lengths a homer would go to try and prove to the world that his RB is "the man"
 
To simplify even further, what I've basically called out here is a "false positive" In the case of justifying the decision to go with Deuce over Ricky, media types and Saints fans have committed a "false positive" on this game. They saw the game, and think that the game proved to them that the answer to the Deuce question is a positive one. But in reality, it did not prove any answer to the question of the wisdom of using Deuce and getting rid of Ricky. That is NOT TO SAY, that I am trying to say that Deuce sucks. That would be a false negative, because he didn't really show enough in this game to say that the answer to the Deuce question is negative either. What I'm tryin to say is, "the jury is [still] out" on the question of Haslett's wisdom where it concerns Deuce...whereas some media types and Saints fans are treating this Miami preseason game as the verdict.
 
Originally posted by ckparrothead
Wow Coach Largent....a Saints fan comes out of the woodwork to police his own on a Dolphins message board. I'm impressed...especially with that "Oh I'm sure it was RW's fault" message. Damn ya couldn't have really abused him more than that.

CK ---- I'm both a Saint Fan and a Phin fan (notice my SIG PIC in the WDZ link .... )(I wore #13 every year, I played after the age of 12, all hail Dan the Man. -- my dad is a football coach and Shula was his idle, so I grew up with the Phins. )

The Saints were near us (in proximity and NOT the Cowboys who we both hated.) so they were a logical choice to root for in the NFC.
 
Originally posted by ckparrothead
But even so notice Brad has conveniently gotten off-topic of the reason I STARTED this thread, and that was that everyone is all the sudden grabbing onto Deuce's jockstrap after this Saint-Dolphins game because of what he did in the game. I merely pointed out that stats are pretty deceiving in this game where his catches are concerned, for reasons I've advertised plenty.

And when it comes to his running, well first off he only averaged 3.8 yards per carry which to my knowledge is below Ricky Williams' 4.0 yards per carry from 2000 and 2001. I'm not tryin to say that Williams is BETTER than Deuce or anything with this stat. What I'm trying to point out rather, is the fault in using that performance to say that Deuce McAllister is everything they hoped he was...and using that stat to justify getting rid of Ricky in favor of Deuce. Because the #1 reason Haslett prefers Deuce to Ricky supposedly, is because Deuce will average more yards per carry...he won't need to touch the ball 30 times a game like Ricky to be effective. Even Haslett admits that Deuce probably can't stay injury-free when he runs the ball 25-30 times a game. So he says that Deuce will see less carries than Ricky, but Deuce will do more in those carries than Ricky did...in other words, he should have a HIGHER YPC than Ricky Williams did. Well, how is it that a bunch of Saints fans and sports writers can use a 3.8 ypc against the 18th ranked rushing defense MINUS the THREE MOST IMPORTANT PIECES OF THE FRONT 7, to say that Haslett was right? Didn't Haslett say that Deuce should be averaging MORE yards per carry than Ricky? He didn't...against a rush defense that should have been pretty bad too.

So what about this performance is starting to make the Saints look "smart" for ditching Ricky in favor of Deuce? Thats what I'M saying. I'm not tryin to talk about Ricky's production in the game whatsoever...I'm not tryin to say he looked better or worst than Deuce. I'm isolating Deuce's performance, much like Don Banks of CNN/SI did recently, and trying to ask the question why is it that a sports writer like Don Banks can look at Deuce's performance isolated, and all the sudden be on Deuce's jockstrap? How did Deuce PROVE himself in this game? In my opinion he didn't, and the only reason Don Banks writes that article is because Deuce's stats are deceiving in that game and he doesn't care to take an up close look at the facts, and knows that 95% of his readers don't care to take an up close look at the facts surrounding Deuce's performance.

But all the same....my all time favorite line has to be how "blitzing" is not necessarily part of "schemes" LMFAO! Riiiigggght. I believe "blitzes" are what define "schemes" Or rather, than can be no blitz, without a blitz scheme...a blitz is a scheme, just like a zone mixed coverage is a scheme. I still can't believe the lengths a homer would go to try and prove to the world that his RB is "the man"

How dumb can you get? First, I did not go off topic. I posted replies to every topic.

Second, Why do you try to point out Ricky's NFL career average at 4.0 yards per carry and then point out Deuce's 3.8 yards per carry in a preseason game? Ricky played in that very same game against another defense that was sad against the run last season as well, yet he only averaged 2.1 yards per carry. If you want to go and use career NFL stats, then use Deuce's regular season stats that say he averages 5.7 yards per carry.

Haslett's #1 reason of Deuce over Ricky is not because he averages more yards per carry, but because Haslett likes runningbacks who can hold onto the football. And the Offensive Coordinator likes runningbacks who can catch the ball. Deuce is a much better fit for this scheme.

The article was not written just because Deuce outperformed Ricky in their first head to head match up. No matter what happened in that game, an article would have been written.

Do you expect them to write "Oh, Ricky Williams is still ten times better than Deuce despite only rushing for 17 yards on 8 carries and 10 yards on two catches." ? I don't think so. Everyone still knows that Deuce has to prove something in the regular season. Even Deuce himself says he still has to improve.

Blitzing is still not scheming. If you want to go by your definition of it, then simply using plays from the playbook is scheming. Because aren't the receivers running routes to where the QB knows he's going? And aren't the runningbacks going to run a certain direction that the whole offense knows?

There is a difference between just blitzing one or two guys and dropping back a few others and then making it look like you're blitzing from the right side and then you come from the left. Most blitzes used in preseason are still the basic blitzes, just like how basic formations on offense are used.
 
Man its like hammering a brick through sheet metal with you. I'm not trying to say that Ricky Williams is better or anything. I'm trying to point out the fault in using THIS GAME as evidence that Deuce McAllister really is a suitable replacement for Ricky for all the reasons advertised. And whenever Haslett talked about his new offense with Deuce, he always and I do mean ALWAYS mentions how Deuce is a guy that can do his damage with fewer carries than Ricky, who is faster and a bigger homerun threat, etc. He never mentions the fumbling otherwise you might as well have some training camp fodder in there as long as he doesn't fumble the ball. So given Haslett's hypothesis that Deuce can do more damage with fewer carries (ie YARDS PER CARRY) why is it that people take a 3.8 yard per carry performance against an injured and substituted to all heck defense, as proof that Jim Haslett and the Saints were "right" which is EXACTLY what this Don Banks article was trying to say. Don Banks was saying that Jim Haslett may have been RIGHT, and used Deuce's performance in THIS GAME as evidence. How does that happen is all I'm saying.

Oh but you're just some rogue Saints fan who wants to somehow prove your own existence by pointing out how much Ricky sucks in comparison to Deuce. But you know what, I'M NOT INTERESTED! I don't care what you think about RICKY in relation to DEUCE. I already KNOW that Ricky is an excellent runningback. I can make that decision ON MY OWN thank you without some biased Saints fan giving me his thoughts. That is not why I started this thread. The reason I started this thread is because Don Banks, and other people I noticed, have started to use THIS PERFORMANCE, DEUCE MCALLISTER vs. THE DOLPHINS D (not Deuce McAllister vs Ricky Williams mind you) as a reason to say "Hey, you know, Jim Haslett might have been right all along"

And all I'm saying is, fine you can go on and think that, but there wasn't much in this performance to support such a statement. Go bring your anti-Ricky crusade somewhere else Brad. This is a discussion about Deuce McAllister's performance against the Dolphins Defense, in relation to the stories coming out about Deuce now. This has almost nothing to do with Ricky's production.
 
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