For the Matt Ryan haters/Beck lovers...

[adamprez2003]

You make several WAGS and presumptions in your post that thoroughly shed doubt on your talent appraisal.

First, there's been absolutely nothing at all to state that Dorsey *has* to be a nose tackle in a 3-4, or even if we're running a 3-4. Secondly, given that Dorsey can line up at pretty much any gap on the line and occupy two blockers, your statement that he's not worth 7-9 million dollars is flat out incorrect.

Thirdly, your entire paragraph on Chris Long is pure conjecture. Wild *** speculation. Pure fantastic prognostication. I'm not even going to dignify it with a response outside of stating that your statement of us investing any particular amount of money in linebackers is ludicrous when other teams have amounts approaching that number in *one* defensive player, let alone the core unit of their run-stopping and pass protection gameplan.

You can defend Ryan all you want, and I know you will despite the abundance of facts at your disposal, but to invent scenarios entirely to fit your vision of the future is the mark of a man too involved in fantasy and conjecture to accept the truth.

Nothing you offer is anything other than conjecture either. Free agency is weeks away. Will you concede that Chris Long is not an option as a LB if we get Calvin Pace, Lance Briggs or Clark Haggans? Or will you hold on to him being an option even if our linebacking corps is completely filled

You say that there is nothig to "prove" we're running a 3-4. Well you can keep your head in the sand and miss all the signs you want but its pretty obvious that's where we're heading. I guess you dont believe in anything until it actually happens which makes it strange that you even have an opinion on who we're drafting since that is nothing more than speculation this early in the process

You go out of your way to ridicule Glenn Dorsey not being worth the contract he would command but once again my opinion is reflected by pros, people who actually earn a check from the NFL, namely Tom Heckert in the same article that I provided CnCC

Everyone is in agreement that Dorsey will be an outstanding pro. But if, as expected, the Dolphins elect to use a 3-4 defense, choosing Dorsey will make little sense. You don't use the first pick in the draft on a nose tackle—which is what Dorsey would play in a three-man front.

Any defensive lineman chosen that high should provide a lot of sacks, and as talented as Dorsey is, he probably won't be a player who gets double-digit sacks.

"It's a tough sell if you're going to pay a guy $20 million and he's not going to get sacks," Heckert said.

In one form or another, any of the players who could be chosen with the first pick in the draft is a tough sell.

Go and tell Heckert how incorrect he is about building defensive lines in the salry cap era. I'm sure he would appreciate your insight

 

[adamprez2003]

Thank you Adam.

I think you are stretching the statement, Heckert did not say he was worth a number one, you are assuming.. and hoping he was. We don't NEED a qb so badly that we should waste the value of the first overall pick for someone who is likly not any great improvement over John Beck. Imo, Ryan is not a franchise qb, and THAT is why you don't blow the first pick on him.

Your assement of Ryans actual value is very different than mine, and only the anouncment by the commish will show us who is correct. :up:

I agree. We may differ on how to do it and we may differ on what our priorities are (with a 1-15 there are so many priorities that it shouldnt be surprising) but we all have the same goal in mind which is getting the Dolphins to the promised land so its all good:hi5:

 

[cnc66]

I agree. We may differ on how to do it and we may differ on what our priorities are (with a 1-15 there are so many priorities that it shouldnt be surprising) but we all have the same goal in mind which is getting the Dolphins to the promised land so its all good:hi5:

well said ! :df81:

 

[Boomer]

These arguments that we shouldnt draft Ryan because we have Beck are ridiculous. Using that logic we cant draft Dorsey because we have Solia, we cant draft Chris Long because we have Matt Roth. Using this line of reasoning the only player we'll be able to draft is TE John Carlson. Brilliant

Except you routinely use 8 linemen a game.

You only use 1 QB.

 

[Vendigo]

You say that there is nothig to "prove" we're running a 3-4. Well you can keep your head in the sand and miss all the signs you want but its pretty obvious that's where we're heading.

Care to elaborate on that? Sparano has repeatedly said that they will tailor the system to fit the players not vice versa. Accordingly, they have just released the only NT on the entire roster. Apart from Parcells familiarity with the 3-4 - which, by the way, he didn't force feed on the Cowboys until they had gathered the right personell in two drafts - there's preciously little signs that we're running a 3-4. There's no nose tackle, there's just one prototypical outside linebacker and the remaining linemen would be as good a fit for 4-3 defensive tackles, if not better. Add to that the fact that the safety position is a mess with one starter (and UFA) coming off a severe injury and the other being somewhat of a wildcard and you have more than a handful of evidence that we might just be heading for a 4-3 until Ireland and Parcells get their 3-4 guys together.

Mind you, I'm not saying that we will see a 4-3 in Miami - they might just go ahead and draft Dorsey as a 3-4 NT - but accusing people of keeping their heads in the sand when there's more than enough signs that what they claim could actually happen seems like a rather questionable proposition.

 

[Boomer]

Thank you Adam.

I think you are stretching the statement, Heckert did not say he was worth a number one, you are assuming.. and hoping he was. We don't NEED a qb so badly that we should waste the value of the first overall pick for someone who is likly not any great improvement over John Beck. Imo, Ryan is not a franchise qb, and THAT is why you don't blow the first pick on him.

Your assement of Ryans actual value is very different than mine, and only the anouncment by the commish will show us who is correct. :up:

Absolutely Marty.

Heckert DIDN'T say "If you needed a QB in round 1 or at pick 1 or in round 7". That statement from Heckert has been screwed to fill an argument when he actually doesn't say what those using it want it to say.

The bottom line is that a number of people think that Matt Ryan isn't rated any higher than John Beck.

 

[Boomer]

Nothing you offer is anything other than conjecture either. Free agency is weeks away. Will you concede that Chris Long is not an option as a LB if we get Calvin Pace, Lance Briggs or Clark Haggans? Or will you hold on to him being an option even if our linebacking corps is completely filled

You say that there is nothig to "prove" we're running a 3-4. Well you can keep your head in the sand and miss all the signs you want but its pretty obvious that's where we're heading. I guess you dont believe in anything until it actually happens which makes it strange that you even have an opinion on who we're drafting since that is nothing more than speculation this early in the process

You go out of your way to ridicule Glenn Dorsey not being worth the contract he would command but once again my opinion is reflected by pros, people who actually earn a check from the NFL, namely Tom Heckert in the same article that I provided CnCC

Everyone is in agreement that Dorsey will be an outstanding pro. But if, as expected, the Dolphins elect to use a 3-4 defense, choosing Dorsey will make little sense. You don't use the first pick in the draft on a nose tackle—which is what Dorsey would play in a three-man front.

Any defensive lineman chosen that high should provide a lot of sacks, and as talented as Dorsey is, he probably won't be a player who gets double-digit sacks.

"It's a tough sell if you're going to pay a guy $20 million and he's not going to get sacks," Heckert said.

In one form or another, any of the players who could be chosen with the first pick in the draft is a tough sell.

Go and tell Heckert how incorrect he is about building defensive lines in the salry cap era. I'm sure he would appreciate your insight

Why don't you actually bold what Heckert said and not what the journalist wrote.

Because what Heckert ACTUALLY said was:

"It's a tough sell if you're going to pay a guy $20 million and he's not going to get sacks".

You're manipulating the text to suit your 'argument'.

 

[adamprez2003]

Except you routinely use 8 linemen a game.

You only use 1 QB.

Touche'. Still a roster needs at last two QBs and many have three. Assuming Cleo isnt resigned, there is an empty void or two waiting to be filled. Also assumes that the QB Bill wants to use is on the roster currently.

 

[emocomputerjock]

Nothing you offer is anything other than conjecture either. Free agency is weeks away. Will you concede that Chris Long is not an option as a LB if we get Calvin Pace, Lance Briggs or Clark Haggans? Or will you hold on to him being an option even if our linebacking corps is completely filled

You say that there is nothig to "prove" we're running a 3-4. Well you can keep your head in the sand and miss all the signs you want but its pretty obvious that's where we're heading. I guess you dont believe in anything until it actually happens which makes it strange that you even have an opinion on who we're drafting since that is nothing more than speculation this early in the process

You go out of your way to ridicule Glenn Dorsey not being worth the contract he would command but once again my opinion is reflected by pros, people who actually earn a check from the NFL, namely Tom Heckert in the same article that I provided CnCC

Everyone is in agreement that Dorsey will be an outstanding pro. But if, as expected, the Dolphins elect to use a 3-4 defense, choosing Dorsey will make little sense. You don't use the first pick in the draft on a nose tackle—which is what Dorsey would play in a three-man front.

Any defensive lineman chosen that high should provide a lot of sacks, and as talented as Dorsey is, he probably won't be a player who gets double-digit sacks.

"It's a tough sell if you're going to pay a guy $20 million and he's not going to get sacks," Heckert said.

In one form or another, any of the players who could be chosen with the first pick in the draft is a tough sell.

Go and tell Heckert how incorrect he is about building defensive lines in the salry cap era. I'm sure he would appreciate your insight

You've got one guy saying all of the above. You might as well say, "Well, the Phillies GM agrees with me. Can't say that anyone else agrees with him with any certainty, because he's the only guy named in the one article that agrees with your viewpoint. Even then, he doesn't explicitly agree with your stance. On top of all that, the article you keep bandying about states flat out that most teams don't have Ryan ranked anywhere near previous #1 QBs in the draft. I quote directly:

"This year none of the quarterbacks are franchise guys," one team president said. "You can't even argue they might be. But the reason you take a quarterback, even if he's not the perfect prospect, is that's the only position where the pay for the first pick in the draft would be even close to being justified. It has a chance to be justified. Whoever you get, you're going to severely overpay."

Once again, just because some guy says that Ryan is the #1 QB overall doesn't mean he's worthy of the #1 draft pick. Heck, the article states that McFadden is the #1 overall for some GMs :rolleyes2:. Try again instead of dredging up the same shoddy material.

Secondly, as far as Chris Long is concerned...

If we are going to run a 3-4 (despite the fact that we don't have the personnel for it) and we get Briggs, that leaves us with Briggs, Crowder, and Porter...and Pope. Or Spragan. And of course, Long would *have* to play at OLB right? :rolleyes2: This love and never-ending search for the next JT is just as foolish and misguided as our search for the next Marino.

Don't you think Sparano's statement that we're going to a system that fits the players we have instead of the players having to fit the system was a bit far-sighted given the amount of free agents we'd have to acquire at outrageous prices in order to make it work? You don't think they're going to be versatile or inventive enough to make it work? You think this one season is going to be the be-all and end-all for the Dolphins for the next 10 years?

 

[adamprez2003]

you have more than a handful of evidence that we might just be heading for a 4-3 until Ireland and Parcells get their 3-4 guys together.

.

If the long term goal is 3-4 which you seem to be in agreement with then you're not going to draft 4-3 players. 2008 we may very well play a 4-3 because we havent put all the pieces together but the foundation that is being built through the draft will be entirely based on a 3-4 defense.

 

[adamprez2003]

Absolutely Marty.

Heckert DIDN'T say "If you needed a QB in round 1 or at pick 1 or in round 7". That statement from Heckert has been screwed to fill an argument when he actually doesn't say what those using it want it to say.

The bottom line is that a number of people think that Matt Ryan isn't rated any higher than John Beck.

You have completely misconstrued his statement to fit "your" argument. The title of the article is
A fantastic 4, but no top dog

Teams don't envy Dolphins' top pick with no clear-cut No. 1 emerging

The entire article and questioning is based on who gets drafted number one. Do you think Heckert is commenting on who should be drafted with the 10th pick?

 

[adamprez2003]

Why don't you actually bold what Heckert said and not what the journalist wrote.

Because what Heckert ACTUALLY said was:

"It's a tough sell if you're going to pay a guy $20 million and he's not going to get sacks".

You're manipulating the text to suit your 'argument'.

Fair enough what does that statement mean then? Even if the writer used the consensus of the other six front office executives to come up with that conclusion how is that any less valid? I would think it would be more so. Considering that only one front office exec thought Dorsey would be his choice and Ryan got two and one of the two was Heckert by implication then I think its reasonable to assume that Heckert is backing up the writer's conclusion

 

[Vendigo]

If the long term goal is 3-4 which you seem to be in agreement with then you're not going to draft 4-3 players

No, but you're going to draft players who are able to perform and produce in the 4-3 while you are forced to run it. Hence Long or Dorsey make a lot of sense. Both could spend their rookie years in an easier to impact right away in 4-3 before they make the transition to 3-4 DE or 3-4 NT. I'm not particularly high on drafting a 3-4 NT at #1 overall either, but the truth is that Dorsey wouldn't be a 3-4 NT at first. He'd be a 4-3 DT and have one or two years to grow before making the transition.

 

[emocomputerjock]

Fair enough what does that statement mean then? Even if the writer used the consensus of the other six front office executives to come up with that conclusion how is that any less valid?

It's less valid because it's one guys opinion on why not only Dorsey, but any of the players in the "top 4" will have a hard time - the guy is trying to make the case with his article that there are no sure-fire guys at the top of the draft this year.

More to the point, he's doing the same lazy prognostication that a lot of writers are doing at this time - saying Dorsey is going to have to be a NT (and he could very well be) and that he doesn't make sense for a 3-4 because of that. To my mind, that's ludicrous, given Dorsey's talent and especially given the "planet theory". If you say Ryan is #1 because he's a Bledslow clone, I say that Dorsey is the #1 because he's a highly versatile and athletic 300# guy.

 

[adamprez2003]

You've got one guy saying all of the above. You might as well say, "Well, the Phillies GM agrees with me. Can't say that anyone else agrees with him with any certainty, because he's the only guy named in the one article that agrees with your viewpoint. Even then, he doesn't explicitly agree with your stance. On top of all that, the article you keep bandying about states flat out that most teams don't have Ryan ranked anywhere near previous #1 QBs in the draft. I quote directly:

"This year none of the quarterbacks are franchise guys," one team president said. "You can't even argue they might be. But the reason you take a quarterback, even if he's not the perfect prospect, is that's the only position where the pay for the first pick in the draft would be even close to being justified. It has a chance to be justified. Whoever you get, you're going to severely overpay."

Once again, just because some guy says that Ryan is the #1 QB overall doesn't mean he's worthy of the #1 draft pick. Heck, the article states that McFadden is the #1 overall for some GMs :rolleyes2:. Try again instead of dredging up the same shoddy material.

I have never based my selection for number one on who is worthy of being a number one because I dont think any of them are. I believe there are only 3 positions you draft overall number 1 when you run a 3-4; QB, LOT, pass rushing OLB. Noone in this years draft is the next Carson Palmer, Orlando Pace or Shawne Merriman so that is why my preference is for trading down. But since I find that highly unlikely we must make do with the choices we have. When compared with Chris Long, Glenn Dorsey, Vernon Gholston and Jake Long, Matt Ryan is the best option to help this team long term IMO for all the reasons I've stated previously. The only guy I see as a pssibility for me to be intrigued by is Phillip Merling pending his combine numbers. But right now he seems to be anywhere from 9th to 29th overall so I'll defer to consensus top five picks unless Merling moves up into consideration

Secondly, as far as Chris Long is concerned...

If we are going to run a 3-4 (despite the fact that we don't have the personnel for it) and we get Briggs, that leaves us with Briggs, Crowder, and Porter...and Pope. Or Spragan. And of course, Long would *have* to play at OLB right? :rolleyes2: This love and never-ending search for the next JT is just as foolish and misguided as our search for the next Marino.

What about JT? If we get Briggs I assume we'll trade JT but do you also assume that? It's not clear from that statement

Don't you think Sparano's statement that we're going to a system that fits the players we have instead of the players having to fit the system was a bit far-sighted given the amount of free agents we'd have to acquire at outrageous prices in order to make it work? You don't think they're going to be versatile or inventive enough to make it work? You think this one season is going to be the be-all and end-all for the Dolphins for the next 10 years

? I dont understand this. Are yuou saying that we're staying in a 4-3 permanently or are you only talking about the 2008 season because if its just 2008 then we may very well end up running a 4-3 but we wont draft for one