Full AFC East Grades (Plus NY Giants)

[phintim]

Incidentally part of me wonders if NE isn't going to just turn around when the lockout is done and offer the Dolphins Ryan Mallett for next year's 2nd rounder.

I believe Ireland would take it if they offered it!

 

[Pachyderm_Wave]

I believe Ireland would take it if they offered it!

I'm going to address this post and your previous one right here.

Brandon Marshall spells doomsday for Miami no matter what. I don't see how anyone in their right mind would be willing to prevent themselves from potentially acquiring a franchise quarterback for the next decade plus on account of having to cater to a player like Brandon Marshall, who's just going to make you miserable anyway... both in the short term and long term.

I'd trade Brandon Marshall to New England yesterday in exchange for Ryan Mallett and one of their 2nd rounders next year.

 

[finsfanjay13]

I figured I'd address these points as well to give you a fair shake. I just hope you don't come back with defensive attacks again.

We just disagree on the Ingram/Pouncey/Amukamara front... Amukamara can't do for Miami's defense what Ingram could do for Miami's offense.

Selecting Ingram would've been BOTH acquiring talent AND filling a need, Amukamara wouldn't.

There's also a fourth option that I didn't include, but since you like arguing semantics, I'll go ahead and include it:

4.) Acquiring talent OR a need.

There. Now Amukamara fits within our lovely prerequisites for drafting a player. We will never agree here, so it's pointless anyways.

All of the running backs weren't going to come off the board between #62 and Miami's pick at #79.

In the general sense, you're right. Noel Devine would have still been available (and others, but I'm not going to list them all).

You don't find it strange that Ireland was able to pull off a trade for the running back, but couldn't manage to trade back up into the 3rd round for Ryan Mallett? I damn sure do..

No. I don't find it strange. He made a decision to draft Thomas over Mallett. Do I agree with that decision? No. Do I think that *one* decision automatically makes the entire draft scenario absurd? No.

It's because he didn't have the ammunition to pull off a fair trade for Mallett after he had already traded up for Daniel Thomas. If anything, he had to make a half-assed attempt at trading up for Mallett with an offer that he pretty much knew any team with a competent front office wouldn't fall for. But at least he can say "I tried"...

Thanks for the information. I wouldn't have been able to figure that out myself. I think it's rather obvious the second he drafted Daniel Thomas that Ryan Mallett would not be a Miami Dolphin unless he fell into the fourth or beyond.

If he would've used that trade up to #62 for Ryan Mallett after taking Ingram at #15, he still would've had picks to address the offensive line and wide receiver... he would still end up with Edmond Gates (which was a great pick). Except he'd actually have a quarterback to throw him the football.

Sure. You missed the part where I said I would have preferred Mallett over Thomas. However, your initial statement was that the Dolphins wouldn't have had to make a trade to get Mallett, which was incorrect.

Their draft strategy was absurd...

If the Dolphins end up getting a pro-bowler out of this draft (Pouncey and/or Thomas), would you still consider it absurd?

 

[phintim]

Let me chime in here for a second..


I think most people already knew these guys were going to draft based on what gave them the best chance to squeak out another year of cashing a paycheck... that's no surprise.

I like most of the players Miami drafted, I think they got some really good football players and addressed critical needs. However, I don't agree with where or how they chose to address them the first 2 days of the draft.

Everyone that didn't want Mark Ingram at #15, didn't want him because he was "slow". He wasn't the "fast", "explosive", "big play" back that they think Miami needed. Well, neither is Daniel Thomas.

If you're going to take a 4.6 running back, at least take the best one in the draft when he's sitting right there for you to take him. I'd rather have seen them spend the 15th pick on Ingram, rather than trading up and basically pissing away draft picks for Daniel Thomas.

They could've used those picks to address the offensive line, as really good prospects were available all throughout those rounds.


Furthermore, there's no excuse for passing up a legitimate quarterback prospect several times if you indeed do "like him and think he's going to be a really good quarterback".... as Ireland suggested.

Their strategy and plan of attack in this draft was absurd, regardless of the players they selected. Miami just didn't have a good feel for this draft at all.

Its all how you view Daniel Thomasand their need for a young running back. Looking at how they draft all players at all positions high in their past drafts then IMO Daniel Thomas was the last highly targeted running back left on their draft board so they bascally had no choice but to go up and grab him.

As far as Ingram is concerned we all saw at the end of the draft where he ended up so we certainly could have traded down gotten Ingram and then addressed the OL in the 2nd round of the draft and traded up with the pick for Daniel Thomas and grabbed Mallett too. Everyone would be dancing in the streets with that draft but it did not happen. IMO I think they were looking for the trade down not so much for Mallet but just for the additional picks but agree to disagree here I tend to believe Ireland when he said that the phone just did not ring so they chose who they chose.

Just studying all the draftniks stuff out on the net (who do a ton more research than I do) I went in believing that the phins could trade to the back of the first round and there would be a very decent chance that one of these three players would still be on the board Pouncy, Ponder, Ingram and or the OT form Wisconsin. We will never know about Pouncy but we know that about the other 2 and according to who they drafted in that first round would determine who they drafted in the 2nd.

I went with Ponder by the way because the draftniks said he was the most mature QB out there and thus would be NFL ready sooner than later and could deal with some of the stuff thats going on with the phins right now.

Sure we need (pardon the pun) to start drafting wants instead of needs and sharpen our pencil and learn how to trade down in that darn draft. Whoever got that Prince guy playing CB got the steal of the draft in the 1st round.

 

[phintim]

I'm going to address this post and your previous one right here.

Brandon Marshall spells doomsday for Miami no matter what. I don't see how anyone in their right mind would be willing to prevent themselves from potentially acquiring a franchise quarterback for the next decade plus on account of having to cater to a player like Brandon Marshall, who's just going to make you miserable anyway... both in the short term and long term.

I'd trade Brandon Marshall to New England yesterday in exchange for Ryan Mallett and one of their 2nd rounders next year.

I hate to say it because it would admit failuer on our part but I agree with you. Marshall is a Joey Porter on offense very talented but very mouthy. They can be controled I do believe but it takes a special strong individual to make that happen and Tony S certainly has not risen to the occasion. In fact that IMO was Tony S final undoing by the end of last season as I felt Marshall was running the team more than he was. Ugg and Marshall is a talent.
PS Only good thing about him getting stabbed is maybe just maybe he might start to percieve that no one may want him as he is getting older with all that baggage so he might humble himself enough to become less of a disctraction but I doubt it.

 

[3rdandinches]

What I find crazy about all this bickering is people actually believe an FO/CS that was publically out the door before Ross was made a fool of himself and instead of following through he begged for them to comeback and sweeten the pot. Now "fans" are complaining they didn't draft a QB that realistically won't have any effect on this team this year and knowing that the FO/CS will be long gone if 2011 is a flop.

So why would anyone invest in a rookie QB that you don't believe in when your job is the line?

 

[3rdandinches]

Incidentally part of me wonders if NE isn't going to just turn around when the lockout is done and offer the Dolphins Ryan Mallett for next year's 2nd rounder.

If that could even remotely be a possiblility then why wouldn't they have offered that to another team during the draft? I would have a tough time believing some of the teams ahead of NE would have turned that value down. If they really wanted Mallett then he would have been the pick in the 2nd!

 

[Pachyderm_Wave]

I figured I'd address these points as well to give you a fair shake. I just hope you don't come back with defensive attacks again.



There's also a fourth option that I didn't include, but since you like arguing semantics, I'll go ahead and include it:

4.) Acquiring talent OR a need.

There. Now Amukamara fits within our lovely prerequisites for drafting a player. We will never agree here, so it's pointless anyways.



In the general sense, you're right. Noel Devine would have still been available (and others, but I'm not going to list them all).



No. I don't find it strange. He made a decision to draft Thomas over Mallett. Do I agree with that decision? No. Do I think that *one* decision automatically makes the entire draft scenario absurd? No.



Thanks for the information. I wouldn't have been able to figure that out myself. I think it's rather obvious the second he drafted Daniel Thomas that Ryan Mallett would not be a Miami Dolphin unless he fell into the fourth or beyond.



Sure. You missed the part where I said I would have preferred Mallett over Thomas. However, your initial statement was that the Dolphins wouldn't have had to make a trade to get Mallett, which was incorrect.



If the Dolphins end up getting a pro-bowler out of this draft (Pouncey and/or Thomas), would you still consider it absurd?

Miami got a pro-bowler in the 2008 draft and passed up a franchise quarterback in the process... I considered that draft a blunder from day 1. In fact, I specifically said it was going to be the latest in a long line of QB blunders this franchise has made if they chose to pass up Matt Ryan.


I'll let you draw your own conclusion and answer your own question here as to what I think....


If I've said it once I've said it a thousand times.. "They can draft Jake Long's and Mike Pouncey's until their eyes cross and their head caves in, but they're not going to compete for anything until they hit on a quarterback". -TedSlimmJr


"The regime that comes in here and hits on a quarterback is going to be the one that succeeds... period". -TedSlimmJr


There's several quotes around here I've made that you can put in your sig if it helps you understand where I'm coming from..

 

[ckparrothead]

If that could even remotely be a possiblility then why wouldn't they have offered that to another team during the draft? I would have a tough time believing some of the teams ahead of NE would have turned that value down. If they really wanted Mallett then he would have been the pick in the 2nd!

I suggested it simply because there has been a report (coming from the Dolphins themselves) that Miami was trying to trade back up and get hold of him and they think he'll be a good QB. I would not at all put it past New England to either have caught wind of this and deciding to capitalize. That of course assumes that the team Miami was trying to negotiate with was not the Patriots. If that's the case, then it could be a very similar deal with what happened in Eli Manning's draft where Eli said he's not playing for the Chargers, and the Chargers were negotiating a trade-down with the Giants for Phil Rivers, and time expired on it so the Chargers took Eli Manning anyway, then waited until the Giants picked and had them take Phil Rivers, and then they executed the trade after the fact. The fact that there's word out of the Dolphins that they were actively trying to trade up and get him...suggests this is a possibility. Trade negotiations are difficult, especially under time constraints.

 

[Pachyderm_Wave]

What I find crazy about all this bickering is people actually believe an FO/CS that was publically out the door before Ross was made a fool of himself and instead of following through he begged for them to comeback and sweeten the pot. Now "fans" are complaining they didn't draft a QB that realistically won't have any effect on this team this year and knowing that the FO/CS will be long gone if 2011 is a flop.

So why would anyone invest in a rookie QB that you don't believe in when your job is the line?

The problem here is that Jeff Ireland apparently DID have some sort of conviction on Ryan Mallett, which he's making sure he gets that information out there for some reason. You don't have a quarterback, Jeff.

Making it known that you like the quarterbacks you keep passing up, doesn't in anyway, shape, or form make you a competent General Manager. You don't have a quarterback, Jeff.


You don't keep passing up quarterbacks only to come out later and say that you "think he's going to be a really good quarterback", and draft the Chad Henne's and Pat White's...

If you're going to pass up quarterbacks, you need to have a reason for it. You don't have a quarterback, Jeff.

 

[ckparrothead]

I'm going to address this post and your previous one right here.

Brandon Marshall spells doomsday for Miami no matter what. I don't see how anyone in their right mind would be willing to prevent themselves from potentially acquiring a franchise quarterback for the next decade plus on account of having to cater to a player like Brandon Marshall, who's just going to make you miserable anyway... both in the short term and long term.

I'd trade Brandon Marshall to New England yesterday in exchange for Ryan Mallett and one of their 2nd rounders next year.

Not sure what Brandon Marshall has to do with any of this. Ryan Mallett and Brandon Marshall would get along famously.

 

[Pachyderm_Wave]

Not sure what Brandon Marshall has to do with any of this. Ryan Mallett and Brandon Marshall would get along famously.

Perhaps you should read post #180 in this thread... I'm directly addressing what Brandon Marshall has to do with all this in the guy's post I responded to...

 

[Dolphin39]

It's absurd to draft an interior offensive lineman with the 15th overall pick in the draft. Even more absurd to draft one with the 15th overall pick in the draft to play center that has the most difficult time snapping the football of any center prospect of the last 20 years.

It's absurd to trade up for a running back, after you've already passed up the best one in the draft. It's absurd to trade away those picks that you could've used to draft a quarterback, and address the offensive line, for a running back who was going to fall to you anyway. Even if he didn't, there were going to be running backs just as good, or of equal value that were on the board anyway if Thomas wasn't there.

There's nothing about Daniel Thomas that was worth trading up for. His ability and experience in the Wildcat would be the only thing that could possibly make them want to trade up for this running back... which is absurd.

Jeff Ireland and Tony Sparano don't have a quarterback in case you haven't noticed. They could've had both the best running back and the best passer in this draft in Dolphin uniforms, and STILL kept all of their picks to address the offensive line and receiver positions.



You can treat the draft 2 ways:

1. Use it to acquire TALENT

2. Use it to fill needs



This front office doesn't use the draft to acquire TALENT, it's not their philosophy. They use the draft to fill needs and reach for players. Among many, many other things, that's why they'll never get past being a .500 or so football team.

Wow....EXCELLENT POST!

 

[ckparrothead]

Perhaps you should read post #180 in this thread... I'm directly addressing what Brandon Marshall has to do with all this in the guy's post I responded to...

Ah, I didn't see that. Suffice it to say, his theory is wrong. Mallett has a very strong personality, confidence many mistake for arrogance. Jay Cutler is the same way. Ryan Mallett and Jay Cutler are both supremely talented. Jay Cutler has called Brandon Marshall out to the media before. Even so, tehy're best friends. There's a reason Marshall felt the need to break his silence about the draft when he was watching Gruden's QB Camp and decided that Ryan Mallett will be an All Pro.

 

[finsfanjay13]

Miami got a pro-bowler in the 2008 draft and passed up a franchise quarterback in the process... I considered that draft a blunder from day 1. In fact, I specifically said it was going to be the latest in a long line of QB blunders this franchise has made if they chose to pass up Matt Ryan.

Hindsight is 20/20. Just because Matt Ryan has succeeded in Atlanta does not mean he would have succeeded in Miami. Correlation does not imply causation.

I'll let you draw your own conclusion and answer your own question here as to what I think....


If I've said it once I've said it a thousand times.. "They can draft Jake Long's and Mike Pouncey's until their eyes cross and their head caves in, but they're not going to compete for anything until they hit on a quarterback". -TedSlimmJr

They won the AFC East with Chad Pennington in 2008. Do you consider Chad Pennington as being a quarterback that they "hit on" (no underlying implication there)?

"The regime that comes in here and hits on a quarterback is going to be the one that succeeds... period". -TedSlimmJr

Uhh ... isn't that basically a given? I mean, this statement isn't anything revolutionary and applies to ALL regimes in the NFL.

There's several quotes around here I've made that you can put in your sig if it helps you understand where I'm coming from..

I'll pass. Trust me, I know where you're coming from. However, to automatically consider a draft "absurd" because they didn't draft a quarterback is where we disagree for the most part. I don't give this draft an A. But I do give it a passing grade, because no matter which way you slice it, the front office made this team better. Would I have preferred a quarterback? Yes, I would have. With that said, I think next year's crop of quarterbacks is better than this years. I would rather take a flyer on Henne for one more year and actually give him a chance in a system that isn't run by a person who is nearing 100 years old and build a better team around him than draft a QB who wasn't going to do anything for us this year anyways. The Dolphins gave more weapons to whomever is the QB of the future, which I hope has a last name of "Luck", "Barkley" or "Jones".

Trust me, if the Dolphins go 7-9 this year and Henne performs like he did last year (which is likely) and they pass on a QB in 2012, I'll be leading the pack in getting rid of this front office. Hell, I wanted them gone *before* this year's draft. But we got stuck with them, and all we can ask is that they try and make this team better. I believe they accomplished that in this year's draft. Did they hit a homerun? No. But they did hit a double and gave the team a chance to score the go ahead run.

Hopefully that gives you insight into where I'm coming from.