Greatest QB "Let the facts speak for Themselves" | Page 5 | FinHeaven - Miami Dolphins Forums

Greatest QB "Let the facts speak for Themselves"

PHINZONER said:
Montana/Young/Aikman/Bradshaw,Kelly, were all surrounded by an All-Madden team!
So what did Montana do in KC?
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That's an excellent point actually. If Montana was half as good as some people seem to think he was he'd of won a Super Bowl with KC instead of being Buffalo's and Miami's Biatch in the playoffs.
 
Someone once said "That greatness is just being consistently good over a long period of time"


Is 17 years a long period of time?
No other Qb put up 17 years of exelence! NONE!
 
I don't think Marino is the greatest QB of all time, I give that to Montana because he has the rings. The arguement that Marino never won SB rings because of the team around him can easily be put down by the fact that Marino would not of put up the same type of numbers if he had a better supporting cast around him. If he had a legitimate running threat, than he may of won a championship, but he would not of put up the same numbers. The best chance the Phins had to win a SB with Marino IMO, was the year they lost to Buffalo in the Afc Championship 29-10. Montana had a great supporting cast, but he still won, and Marino won in the regular season, but ya gotta win a SB to be the best. I consider Montana better than Elway because I consider Montana like Olajuwon in Houston as the center of the team when he won his championships, and Elway compared to David Robinson when he won his rings as not the focal point of the offense. It's all a matter of opinion, Marino is the greatest passer IMO, but not the greatest QB.
 
Back to the Article!

The new system would reward a player for longevity by having an accumulation factor for years of productionand/the same for Int's and all.

This would eliminate a guy who plays 1/2/3 years like Warner at a remarkable level and then either retires/gets hurt. You have to figure longevity or the best to ever play is w/o a doubt Warner. He has a ring(w/Vermeil. would be 2-3) Numbers,numbers,numbers, and not just stats, but wins.
(Keep in mind this article is several years old, so Aikman and Favre had not accumulated enough stats to push up on the list. We must all agree that Favre would bee in the top 5)

#1 Dan Marino 48,841yds =48.84 pts 7.48yds/att=24.8pts
352 Tds=22pts 59.9 comp%=14.98pts
200 Ints=-20pts Rating=90.62
(Bear in mind sacks aren't included but Marino throwing
the ball away 5-6 times a game to avoid 3rd and long is)

#2 Montana 40551y=7.52 7.52y/a=25.2 273td=17.06
63.2c%=15.8 139int=-13.9 Rating=84.71

#3 Tarkenton 78.73
#4 Fouts 7.68y/p/a 59.8c% 76.47
#5 Moon 75.72
#6 Graham 8.98y/p/a 74.69
#7 Unitas 7.76y/p/a 74.30
#8 Young 8.02y/p/a 64.2c% 71.42

#9 Elway 41706=41.71 7.04c/p/a=20.4 225tds=14.06
56.5c%=14.13 191int=-19.1 Rating=71.2

#10 Kelly 7.42y/p/a 60.3c% 71.20
#11 Kreig 7.26ypa 58.4c% 69.61
#12 Jurgensen 7.56ypa 69.14
#13 Anderson 7.34ypa 59.31c% 67.38
#14 Dawson 7.68ypa 66.43
#15 Simms 7.20ypa 66.05
#16 Tittle 7.52ypa 62.40
#17 Staubach 7.67 ypa 62.31
#18 Starr 7.85ypa 61.87
#19 Van Brocklin 8.16ypa 61.62
#20 Stabler 7.37ypa 59.9c% 56.55

Aikman/Favre/Manning/Bledsoe/and maybe a couple other would be on and moving up this list! Some players would obviously be higher(like Young)
Remember being great is just being consistently good over a long period of time. Brady has been good for 3 yrs and everyone want's to compare him to the "Elite 8" C'mon get real. He could be like Warner now and fall below the top half of qb's in the league next year.Say the Pats go 7-9, he has avg #'s and he never wins another SB or Div. title again. Now how does he rate. On a great team he does great things. On an avg. or below team and he is just adequate. H.O.F'er? No way! you need to prove yourself yor atleast 8-10 years.
 
djfresh47 said:
I don't think Marino is the greatest QB of all time, I give that to Montana because he has the rings. The arguement that Marino never won SB rings because of the team around him can easily be put down by the fact that Marino would not of put up the same type of numbers if he had a better supporting cast around him. If he had a legitimate running threat, than he may of won a championship, but he would not of put up the same numbers. The best chance the Phins had to win a SB with Marino IMO, was the year they lost to Buffalo in the Afc Championship 29-10. Montana had a great supporting cast, but he still won, and Marino won in the regular season, but ya gotta win a SB to be the best. I consider Montana better than Elway because I consider Montana like Olajuwon in Houston as the center of the team when he won his championships, and Elway compared to David Robinson when he won his rings as not the focal point of the offense. It's all a matter of opinion, Marino is the greatest passer IMO, but not the greatest QB.
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What about Brady????? Doesn't play i nearly as good an offense and still wins Super Bowls????
 
To argue the point about a better cast. Put a better D in Miami and it would not have changed anything but oppurtunities for Marino to put up more #'s. They also did try to run the ball. Just were never successful at it. 3yds per carry. Some teams almost doubled that.
 
The Pats 53 man roster is the best I have seen in a long, long time. That said, the coaches favorite speaking point, the NE special teams is at the top in the league. Their D is top 10 I believe and their 2nd and 3rd stringers step in w/o missing a beat. So I ask how does Brady teach all of them to play that well at every position on the team? Where does he find the time to make Brown a decent cb when he is a wr? Wher does he find the time to teach hip movement and route reading to the 3rd strind db? The answer is a palm pilot by Sony! j/k The answer is he doesn't. His coaches make sure every person on that team is ready to play and that they know the game plan as if they were going to start. That is why NE is so good! TEAM... TEAM....TEAM
 
PHINZONER said:
The Pats 53 man roster is the best I have seen in a long, long time. That said, the coaches favorite speaking point, the NE special teams is at the top in the league. Their D is top 10 I believe and their 2nd and 3rd stringers step in w/o missing a beat. So I ask how does Brady teach all of them to play that well at every position on the team? Where does he find the time to make Brown a decent cb when he is a wr? Wher does he find the time to teach hip movement and route reading to the 3rd strind db? The answer is a palm pilot by Sony! j/k The answer is he doesn't. His coaches make sure every person on that team is ready to play and that they know the game plan as if they were going to start. That is why NE is so good! TEAM... TEAM....TEAM
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I agree with you. You're the wrong person to answer to my argument. You already measure QB's by there individual accomplishments and not the accomplishments of there team. The Brady argument is more geared for the guys who think the QB's with rings are the best. If that's the case I believe Brady is better than Montana becuase offensively he's had less to work with. Bringing up the defense only solidify's the argument that football is a team sport and no payer should be judged by the success of their team. I also don't believe today's NFL is as strong as it was when the Cowboys or Niners were dominating. I believe the Cowboys of the early 90's would wax the floor with the 2001, 2003 or 2004 Patriots but that's a whole other arguement.

Nobody ever replies to the Charles Haley argumet at all. However if A QB's greatness is measured by how many Super Bowls the TEAM has won why not other players. Yeah the QB is the leader of the offense but who the leader on defense. Who's to say that Charles Haley wans't the vocal leader of every defense he has played on. He has 5 rings so he is the best football player of all time. Right???????

Also many of your points would hold true for 2004, however don't hold much water in 2001 and 2003.
 
There is an a ol man or two that have 5 rings to.

Let's see, team...... wins, Marino has more than montana, young,Favre Aikman,Tarkenton....on and on. Elway has 1 mor win and he had, what, 4 or 5 SB TEAMS. If you ask Marino's teamates, they would tell you how great he was on the field. He knew where every offensive and defensive player should be, that is why he got so fired up when a wr runs a wrong route. OJ said it was like having another coach on the field. He helped every offensive player w/ blitz p/u route adjustments, I mean everything. He called the plays! He led his team to more winning seasons than Elway.

I do not soley weigh the best ever on ind.performance. It is the only yard stick to which you can measure two or more guys that perform a similar job. Wins, Marino has them, people say it is all about winning. Done. If a qb was on a team that went 8-8 every year and got the wild card. went on and won 4 straight super bowls w/ a ravens type def. and he threw for 1800 yds and 11 tds and 12 ints sacked the most bad comp% and fumbled regularly, would you argue that he is the best ever.

This is not pointed at any one individual. Just want feedback on your case for SB wins=Best ever.


Greatest wr's Marino had: OJ and Fryar!
 
David Woodley for the talent he had, took Miami to the Super Bowl and on the first play from scrimmage ( I may be wrong on that but it sounds good) threw a 60-70 yard bomb to Jimmy Cefalo to go up 6-0!


Geez if Woodley can do it, why not Feely?

PS. You know I am kidding about Woodley being the best. I never hear him mentioned, so I threw him in.
 
finnyboy002 said:
It doesn't matter if "they" mention his name or not, if Adam Vinatieri was an awful kicker how does that make Tom Brady any less of a Quarterback? That makes no sense what-so-ever. Jim Kelly was a great QB in his own right, and my opinion of him doesn't change because Scott Norwood missed :roflmao: excuse me... the game winning kick in the Super :lol: sorry about that... Bowl game!!!
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everytime "they" talk about brady the main arguement is that he has won 3 of the last 4 SBs, and some pocket awarness. it changes the way you think about players.

as for the 1990s bills, if the bills had won just 1 of those 4 SBs, than they would be thaught of diffrently than they are now. insted of loosing 4, they would be known for dominating the AFC, for 4 strait years and getting a ring.

so IMO, a missed FG by a kicker, changed the way people view the team and the players.

so not having a SB ring, changes the way people think about marino. from being the greatest ever, to the best QB who doesnt have a ring.
 
F150&Dolfan said:
That's an excellent point actually. If Montana was half as good as some people seem to think he was he'd of won a Super Bowl with KC instead of being Buffalo's and Miami's Biatch in the playoffs.
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Sooo, Marino is better than Montana because Montana didn't win a SB at the end of his career with KC, but number of rings doesn't count when comparing Montana's 3 to Dan's 0?
Not a swipe at Dan, just trying to wrap my mind around the logic in this thread. How do you think Dan would have done on that same KC team in his last couple of years?
Very few great qb's ever did well on another team after their primes.
 
If SB's were the measuring stick then throw in Rypien and Hostetler. For you Bills fans, I thought Jim Kelly was pretty damn good. Face it, a lot of things have to fall into place to win a SB. Most of them beyond the QB's control.
I think Marino or Kelly could have won a couple of SB's each if things had fallen into place better.
I like Montana too; but he was a lot like Griese, in that, he could maximize the talent around him. However, he wasn't physically gifted enough to take over a game like Marino or Elway could.
In the 70's if Archie Manning had been drafted by the Dolphins or Steelers, you don't think he could have won a couple also? Instead he played on some of the most pathetic teams in NFL history and wasted his career running for his life.
 
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